The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Blondie]

Utumno was the place where Galadriel and her warriors were headed at the beginning of the series?

Of course no, it cannot be Utumno. Utumno was much much bigger and deeper and valars destroyed it's upper levels completely. Even the Barad-dur would be a little tower compared to Utumno. In the series this dark stronghold is just a nameless lesser fortess of Morgoth, and seems smaller than Barad-dur.

And that place exists even during the time of the war of the ring?

Yes, but unreachable. According to canon valars didnt destroy the lower levels and many evil creature stayed there. These are symbolic places, Valinor represented the heaven, and Utumno was the Hell in Arda. Udûn/Utumno word means Hell. Both exist, but you cannot go there. Doesnt matter if you have a boat, you can't sail to Valinor, and ruins of Utumno located too deep to reach it.

Suppose you live in Third Age and you wanna go to Utumno. You wont know where is it exactly, but somewhere in north east. What are you gonna do? It's located 10 km deep or something like that. Will you dig the complete Forodwaith in such depth? Impossible. Okay suppose you have more knowledge than the wisest noldor and you know that dragons, Nameless Things are all originated from Utumno (although nobody knews this information in Third Age except Gandalf or Sauron) and according to this logic you are going to Grey Mountains or Moria to follow their tunnels in the deep. First of all you will meet with armies of orcs, troll and dragons. How can you beat them? Suppose you defeated them and you entered these tunnels in the roots of mountains. Obviously these tunnels are home of big worms and unknown creatures. Even the most powerful mage Gandalf was afraid of Nameless Things very much and he was maia. The question is same, how can you beat them? Impossible, and i remind you at such depths the food, potable water are very rare.
But okay suppose you are the greatest wisest luckiest person in Middle Earth and finally you reach the gates of Utumno and you enter it. After that you will face unimaginable horror and you will get a total mental collapse. These evil foes like fallen maiar, demons, fire spirits, ghosts, phantoms,various corrupted creatures, nameless things are more cruel than the most bestial serial killer. Only gods like Valars have any chance against them. You will burn and suffer forever, and there is no escape because this place is Hell of Arda.

[Ruggery]

Of course no, it cannot be Utumno. Utumno was much much bigger and deeper and valars destroyed it's upper levels completely. Even the Barad-dur would be a little tower compared to Utumno. In the series this dark stronghold is just a nameless lesser fortess of Morgoth, and seems smaller than Barad-dur.



Yes, but unreachable. According to canon valars didnt destroy the lower levels and many evil creature stayed there. These are symbolic places, Valinor represented the heaven, and Utumno was the Hell in Arda. Udûn/Utumno word means Hell. Both exist, but you cannot go there. Doesnt matter if you have a boat, you can't sail to Valinor, and ruins of Utumno located too deep to reach it.

Suppose you live in Third Age and you wanna go to Utumno. You wont know where is it exactly, but somewhere in north east. What are you gonna do? It's located 10 km deep or something like that. Will you dig the complete Forodwaith in such depth? Impossible. Okay suppose you have more knowledge than the wisest noldor and you know that dragons, Nameless Things are all originated from Utumno (although nobody knews this information in Third Age except Gandalf or Sauron) and according to this logic you are going to Grey Mountains or Moria to follow their tunnels in the deep. First of all you will meet with armies of orcs, troll and dragons. How can you beat them? Suppose you defeated them and you entered these tunnels in the roots of mountains. Obviously these tunnels are home of big worms and unknown creatures. Even the most powerful mage Gandalf was afraid of Nameless Things very much and he was maia. The question is same, how can you beat them? Impossible, and i remind you at such depths the food, potable water are very rare.
But okay suppose you are the greatest wisest luckiest person in Middle Earth and finally you reach the gates of Utumno and you enter it. After that you will face unimaginable horror and you will get a total mental collapse. These evil foes like fallen maiar, demons, fire spirits, ghosts, phantoms,various corrupted creatures, nameless things are more cruel than the most bestial serial killer. Only gods like Valars have any chance against them. You will burn and suffer forever, and there is no escape because this place is Hell of Arda.

In short, Utumno is such an unknown and dangerous place that even a maia like Gandalf or a powerful wizard like Galadriel would be afraid to go.

Speaking of Moria, Gandalf mentioned that the dwarves dug a lot that they found strange areas under the tunnels of Moria, it is presumed that the Balrog came from there and that there could be other creatures, from the description it is very similar to Untumno although I don't think it is the same place.

[Blondie]

Speaking of Moria, Gandalf mentioned that the dwarves dug a lot that they found strange areas under the tunnels of Moria, it is presumed that the Balrog came from there and that there could be other creatures, from the description it is very similar to Untumno although I don't think it is the same place.

Moria is not Utumno, but creatures of Utumno dug tunnels everywhere in the deep. Under Middle Earth there is a very deep cave/tunnel system made by these rotten creatures. Gandalf mentioned that these Nameless Things dug these tunnels under Moria. When dwarfes dug too deep for mithril, then they broke into a such tunnel where the balrog slept.

In short, Utumno is such an unknown and dangerous place that even a maia like Gandalf or a powerful wizard like Galadriel would be afraid to go.

Yes and impossible to going there. Obviously Sauron knew the place, but it makes no sense to find it. Creatures of Utumno would not have helped for him. Their lord is Morgoth not Sauron, just like the balrog did not serve Sauron, he was independent from him. Fallen maiar of Utumno would see Sauron as just one maia of them, not as Dark Lord or anything. They would not accept Sauron as leader.

[Ruggery]

Moria is not Utumno, but creatures of Utumno dug tunnels everywhere in the deep. Under Middle Earth there is a very deep cave/tunnel system made by these rotten creatures. Gandalf mentioned that these Nameless Things dug these tunnels under Moria. When dwarfes dug too deep for mithril, then they broke into a such tunnel where the balrog slept. .

Exactly that. That is why Sauron could not summon the Balrog of Moria even if he wanted to, even the orcs themselves were afraid of the Balrog.
It is also likely that below Middle Earth there are more Balrogs hiding.

Yes and impossible to going there. Obviously Sauron knew the place, but it makes no sense to find it. Creatures of Utumno would not have helped for him. Their lord is Morgoth not Sauron, just like the balrog did not serve Sauron, he was independent from him. Fallen maiar of Utumno would see Sauron as just one maia of them, not as Dark Lord or anything. They would not accept Sauron as leader.

And as you said yourself, it would be useless for Sauron to try to go there to recruit forces, firstly because the orc army couldn't find him even if he tried as you said, I also doubt that Sauron would want to go to a place where they serve their former leader, it's one thing to convince the evil creatures of middle earth to follow you, and another thing to convince the creatures of Untumno.

At the level of power and influence Sauron is strong but he is not as strong as Morgoth is like comparing a prophet or Messiah with a God.

[Smaug]

Also some dragons, I think not all were under Morgoth's orders, Smaug was independent and Glaurung I think also as Kyp said It could be said that the Guardian of the Water of Moria also since this one was not under the orders of Sauron.

Yes I was, thank you for noticing.

[Blondie]

Update for ROP series SPOILER!


So the first season is over and we know many info. In summary the series is full of non canonical things which is very disturbing.

Meteor Man: he is Gandalf, but according to canon he cannot be in Middle Earth in the Second Age. He comes in meteor form, in canon he comes with ship. Gandalf dont even know who he is, in canon he knows everything at the begining including his quest to save the free peoples. In the last episode he and his hobbit friend are starting to travel to Rhun, this journey will be interesting i think.

Adar: a corrupted elf from the First Age, father of orcs. Maybe this is the best character in the series, his stories are very interesting when he is talking about the First Age. He has serious moral reasons for what he is doing (claiming the Southlands). He and his orcish army are from Grey Mountains, so basically the Mordor orcs are from this place. Adar calls himself Uruk, which means he consider himself orcish although his looking is still elvish. I dont know why he is not transformed into orc like others, he didnt explain it. In the future he will confront with Sauron for sure.

The three female sorcerer: the white robed witches are mysterious, their names are The Dweller (leader), the Nomad, and the Ascetic. They are evil maiar for sure who thought the Meteor Man is Sauron. The Dweller has very serious magical skills, and the came from Rhun. Although the Nomad and Ascetic were destroyed by Gandalf, i think the Dweller is survived somehow. The must be such maiar who survived the First Age just like Sauron.

Halbrand: yes he is Sauron in disguise, im not surprised. He had just a little time in the end in Eregion which is laughable because he is the most important character. After his failing to corrupt Galadriel he went back to Mordor to confront with Adar and to claim Mordor as his own land.

Disturbing non canonical things:

Elves and Valinor: in the series the journey to Valinor is a special gift for only such elves who deserved it. In the canon moving back to Valinor is mandatory thing for every elf because this is the order of valars. Every elf can go back there anytime and no need to do any special thing, its not a gift.

Mithrill: in the series elves need this resources otherwise they will die. This thing does not exist in the canon. After a time elves will not die, but they just fade away, this process is very slowly happens until tens of thousands years not in 3 months like in the series.

Halbrand in Numenor: Halbrands canonical name is Annatar at this time, and he didnt move to Numenor willingly like in the series. In fact he has never been to Numenor until the numenoreans brought him there from Mordor by force.

Sauron's form: so Sauron (Halbrand) is in human disguise as a southern king, in the canon he had elvish form and presented himself as maia send by valars.

Black characters: elves, hobbits, dwarfes, numenoreans are not blacks in the canon. In Middle Earth black humans live in Harad and jungles of Far Harad. Later some black numenoreans (in Umbar) can be black skinned but not at this time for sure.

Fortress in Forodwaith: according to series its ruins of Utumno, in the canon it cannot be Utumno.

Mount Doom: in the series this volcano works with key, in the canon the greatest Dark Lords like Morgoth or Sauron can unleash the fire of Orodruin.

Elvish looking: in the series some elf looks older or younger than others, in the canon they all look same aged.

Gandalf the istar: he cannot be in Middle Earth at this time as i said.

[Ruggery]

Update for ROP series SPOILER!


So the first season is over and we know many info. In summary the series is full of non canonical things which is very disturbing.

Meteor Man: he is Gandalf, but according to canon he cannot be in Middle Earth in the Second Age. He comes in meteor form, in canon he comes with ship. Gandalf dont even know who he is, in canon he knows everything at the begining including his quest to save the free peoples. In the last episode he and his hobbit friend are starting to travel to Rhun, this journey will be interesting i think.

Adar: a corrupted elf from the First Age, father of orcs. Maybe this is the best character in the series, his stories are very interesting when he is talking about the First Age. He has serious moral reasons for what he is doing (claiming the Southlands). He and his orcish army are from Grey Mountains, so basically the Mordor orcs are from this place. Adar calls himself Uruk, which means he consider himself orcish although his looking is still elvish. I dont know why he is not transformed into orc like others, he didnt explain it. In the future he will confront with Sauron for sure.

The three female sorcerer: the white robed witches are mysterious, their names are The Dweller (leader), the Nomad, and the Ascetic. They are evil maiar for sure who thought the Meteor Man is Sauron. The Dweller has very serious magical skills, and the came from Rhun. Although the Nomad and Ascetic were destroyed by Gandalf, i think the Dweller is survived somehow. The must be such maiar who survived the First Age just like Sauron.

Halbrand: yes he is Sauron in disguise, im not surprised. He had just a little time in the end in Eregion which is laughable because he is the most important character. After his failing to corrupt Galadriel he went back to Mordor to confront with Adar and to claim Mordor as his own land.

Disturbing non canonical things:

Elves and Valinor: in the series the journey to Valinor is a special gift for only such elves who deserved it. In the canon moving back to Valinor is mandatory thing for every elf because this is the order of valars. Every elf can go back there anytime and no need to do any special thing, its not a gift.

Mithrill: in the series elves need this resources otherwise they will die. This thing does not exist in the canon. After a time elves will not die, but they just fade away, this process is very slowly happens until tens of thousands years not in 3 months like in the series.

Halbrand in Numenor: Halbrands canonical name is Annatar at this time, and he didnt move to Numenor willingly like in the series. In fact he has never been to Numenor until the numenoreans brought him there from Mordor by force.

Sauron's form: so Sauron (Halbrand) is in human disguise as a southern king, in the canon he had elvish form and presented himself as maia send by valars.

Black characters: elves, hobbits, dwarfes, numenoreans are not blacks in the canon. In Middle Earth black humans live in Harad and jungles of Far Harad. Later some black numenoreans (in Umbar) can be black skinned but not at this time for sure.

Fortress in Forodwaith: according to series its ruins of Utumno, in the canon it cannot be Utumno.

Mount Doom: in the series this volcano works with key, in the canon the greatest Dark Lords like Morgoth or Sauron can unleash the fire of Orodruin.

Elvish looking: in the series some elf looks older or younger than others, in the canon they all look same aged.

Gandalf the istar: he cannot be in Middle Earth at this time as i said.

According to what they said, Annatar will appear in the second season, and if there are elves that age but are rare, one case is that of the elf Cirdan,

Where did they say that Forodwaith fortress was Untumno?

[KirillMazur]

Update for ROP series SPOILER!

You are doing a good job - saving someone else's time. In a fit of cinematographic impotence, my wife and I (as former [non-deep] Tolkienists) already wanted to watch this series, but all the stars indicate that it is better to choose something else.

[Batavia]

I refuse to watch this crap; Tolkien would roll in his grave.

[bandoge]

I read the LotR books but I am not so familiar in deep with Tolkien's work. I like the series for the beautiful world building, but I didn't felt the story very compelling except for the Hobbits plot.