The Genetic History of the Balkans

[Rizza]

Hallsatt origin of Proto-Illyrians has actually been challenged and I personally do not believe anymore proto-Illyrians came from this wave of culture after having read a bit but rather from Vucedol, Cetina and then Glasinac Mati. Albanian language is mainly grouped within it's own branch. Some grouped it before with Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Greek and Armenian.

''Mathieson et al. 2018 archaeogenetic study included three samples from Dalmatia: two Early & Middle Bronze Age (1631-1521/1618-1513 calBCE) samples from Veliki Vanik (near Vrgorac) and one Iron Age (805-761 calBCE) sample from Jazinka Cave in Krka National Park. According to ADMIXTURE analysis they had approximately 60% Early European Farmers, 33% Western Steppe Herders and 7% Western Hunter-Gatherer-related ancestry. The male individual from Veliki Vanik carried the Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a1-L283 while his and two female individuals mtDNA haplogroup were I1a1, W3a1 and HV0e.[2] Freilich et al. (2021) identify the Veliki Vanik samples as related to Cetina culture. They carry similar ancestry to a Copper Age sample from the site of Beli Manastir-Popova Zemlja (late Vučedol culture), eastern Croatia. The same autosomal profile persists in the Iron Age sample from Jazinka cave.[3] Lazaridis et al. (2022) examined 18 samples from Bronze Age Cetina valley and confirmed previous conclusions. Out of 10 males whose Y-DNA was successfully extracted, 9 belonged to haplogroup J2 (mainly J2b2a1-L283 subclades) and 1 to haplogroup R1b1a1b1a-Z2118. Their and female individuals mtDNA haplogroups were 2x H, H13a2a, H5, H6a1, 3x H6a1a, HV0e, 6x J1c1, N1a1a1, T1a1 and U5a1a.[4]''

Vucedol culture: ''According to Bogdan Brukner, proto-Illyrians descended from this wave of Indo-European settlers''

One sample from Vucedol I believe was confirmed R1b-z2103 also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetina_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture

Glasinac Mati emerged after these cultures .

Of course we will eventually see how EV-13 fits into this picture overall.

[Rizza]

According to archaeology proto-Illyrians could of never come from Hallstatt nor supported by any genetic evidence:

Older assumptions of the early 20th century of Illyrians having been the bearers of especially the Eastern Hallstatt culture are indefensible and archeologically unsubstantiated.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

Illyrians were Vucedol and then Cetina then emerged Glasinac Mati culture. So yes, Albanian language most definitely came from there as we also have two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA there, Albanians also live in the Western Balkans, and Albanians are 80%-90% identical to Iron Age samples in Northern Albania, with North/Central Italian being a proxy for Iron Age West Balkan ancestry, basically an East shift that has occurred ( funny enough one Cetina sample even clusters like an Albanian). Thracian origin of proto-Albanian is not supported by any archaeology or genetic evidence. There are no other candidates.

By your logic EV-13 Greeks and other Balkanite EV-13 must be Thracian too why else would you argue proto-Albanian was R1b-z2103 + EV13 despite those Thracians belonged to a bunch of other Y-DNA.

Also I see the person who claims Albanians are supposedly 30% Near Eastern agrees with you:

''the Kosovars show the closest affinities among Western Balkan populations to Greeks and other South European populations. In our ibd analysis, we also did not find evidences for specific gene flow from the Middle East to Kosovars, compared to non-Muslim populations of Western Balkan (Figure 7).''

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...5/#!po=22.8477

[Rizza]

Linguists hold Albanian to be Illyrian and related to Messapian we also got one J2b2-L283 sample from there. Eric Hamp relates Albanian with Illyrian and Messapian:

''Some scholars place Illyrian and Messapic in the same branch. Eric Hamp has grouped them under "Messapo-Illyrian" which is further grouped with Albanian under "Adriatic Indo-European".[15] Other schemes group the three languages under "General Illyrian" and "Western Paleo-Balkan".[16] A number of shared features between Messapic and proto-Albanian may have emerged either as a result of linguistic contacts between Proto-Messapic and Pre-Proto-Albanian within the Balkan peninsula in prehistoric times, or of a closer relation as shown by the quality of the correspondences in the lexical area and shared innovations between Messapic and Albanian.[17]''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

See also his study on Messapic and Albanian.

[Rizza]

So no my friend your arguments hold no ground here. Mostly just strawman arguments. That's why I told you to go troll somewhere else.

[Rizza]

Mallory on Albanian:

''The earliest identifiable loanwords are from Greek, e.g., moker ‘millstone’ (< West Grk [Doric] paxocvd) or draper'sickle’ (< West Grk Spanavov). As in these two cases, the evidence suggests that Greek influence came from western Greece, more particularly from Greek colonies on the Adriatic coast. Much more extensive was the later influence of Latin. Even very common words such as mik ‘friend’ (< Lat amicus) or kendoj ‘I sing; read’ (< Lat cantare) come from Latin and attest to a widespread intermingling of pre-Albanian and Balkan Latin speakers during the Roman period, roughly from the second century BC to the fifth century AD. The Greek and Latin loans have undergone most of the far-reaching phonological changes which have so altered the shape of inherited IE words while Slavic and Turkish words do not show these changes. Thus Albanian must have acquired much of its present form by the time the Slavs entered into the Balkans in the fifth and sixth centuries AD.''

'' Although there are some lexical items that appear to be shared between Romanian (and by extension Dacian) and Albanian, by far the strongest connections can be argued between Albanian and Illyrian. The latter was at least attested in what is historically regarded as Albanian territory and there is no evidence of any major migration into Albanian territory since our records of Illyrian occupation. The loan words from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of the Albanians must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbors. As the Illyrians occupied Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans. Finally, as Shaban Demiraj argues, the ancient Illyrian place- names of the region have achieved their current form through the natural application of the phonetic rules governing Albanian, e.g., Durrachion > Alb Durres (with Albanian initial accent) or Illyrian Aulona > Alb Vlone ~ Vlore (with rhotacism in Tosk). Demiraj suggests that the transition from Illyrian to Albanian began during the fifth and sixth centuries AD and was clearly completed before the immigration of Albanianspeakers to Greece and Italy in the fourteenth-sixteenth centuries.''

Encyclopedia Of Indo-European Culture
by J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams

[Rizza]

I did not mention thracians once... And I am not trolling. Its a real possibility Albanian language as most of albanian Y DNA came directly from Yamnaya mixing with neolithic groups, not from central European beakers, y DNA R1b - z1023 wasn't beaker too , like i said , its not only E v13 .This possibility was mentioned in the southern arc paper even.

Based on everything I have read proto Illyrians were bronze age people that developed from the Vucedol that migrated from the steppes into the Vucedol area where they mingled with Neolithic which was followed then by Cetina culture and some other cultures and later emerged also the Glasinac Mati which was the last.


There is not much that supports Hallstatt origin of Illyrian anymore since Hallstatt is a culture that developed much later ,in central europe nor supported by genetic evidence


Greek, Thracian etc came directly from the steppes and down east

[Rizza]

I did not mention thracians once... And I am not trolling. Its a real possibility Albanian language as most of albanian Y DNA came directly from Yamnaya mixing with neolithic groups, not from central European beakers, y DNA R1b - z1023 wasn't beaker too , like i said , its not only E v13 .This possibility was mentioned in the southern arc paper even.

And of course you are a troll, EV-13 is just some Balkan Y-DNA that hit the boom and which happened in every Balkan population, look up the latest updated statistics for each population. Also among modern Albanians latest statistics for Kosovo and even Albania show 20%-29% , more or less similar to other Balkan populations. J2b2-L283 and R1b were even found together in the Maykop Steppe.

Some how you managed to single out Albanians.

[Rizza]

These researchers are also saying Illyrian/Albanian/Messapic , Greek, Thracian and other Paleo-Balkan languages basically derived from Yamnaya and not corded ware or hallstatt, with Greek and Phrygian possibly migrating directly South-East from the steppes.








https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....823#post875823

[Rizza]

Hallstatt time frame:

1200 – 500 BC
Hallstatt A (1200 – 1050 BC);
Hallstatt B (1050 – 800 BC);
Hallstatt C (800 – 500 BC);
Hallstatt D (620 – 450 BC)

Hallstatt was a culture that developed in Central Europe in Late Bronze Age, Early Iron Age, by that time Illyrians were already in the Balkans as we can see by Ancient DNA From Bronze Age and Iron Age Balkans. So no they most definitely did not come from that culture nor Unetice. Illyrians were Vucedol derived, Cetina and then Glasinac Mati. Possibly other cultures that developed and played a role. Cetina was rich in J2b2, Vucedol was a Neolithic/Yamnaya mix composed of R1b and G. Y-DNA G was a neolithic marker which eventually seems to of disappeared as we can see by later Iron Age Y-DNA that are mostly J2b2 + R1b. J2b2 was probably bottle necked during these periods. And later EV-13 hit a bottle neck.


If Albanian branches of EV-13 are supposedly not Illyrian then I guess neither is the rest of EV-13 in the Balkans by your logic, Croatia, Serbia etc highest pre-Slavic Y-DNA is exactly EV-13. , how did you people manage to single out Albanian branches of EV-13 and claim it did not come from Illyrians ? Where is your evidence for that ?

[PAGANE]

What secrets will the ancient DNA from the Varna Necropolis reveal? 34 DNA studies from the Varna Necropolis


Archaeologists discovered 15 new graves in the Varna Necropolis It is one of the best dated monuments in the Balkans - around 4570 and 4350 BC. According to the Head of the studies, Dr. Vladimir Slavchev, a massive study of the genetics of the found bones is forthcoming. Their DNA analysis will allow tracing the genealogical relationships between the buried. And to date, the 3,000 fine objects with a total weight of more than 6 kg, made about 6,500 years ago, are unparalleled on the planet. Half a century after the discovery of the necropolis, which provoked an international sensation, scientists do not stop looking for connections among the people buried there.
Excavations have been resumed after a 30-year hiatus, and 15 new burials have so far been discovered. More than 100 new artifacts were discovered in them. The people who inhabited the area near Lake Varna 6,500 years ago numbered around 5,000 people. A true cradle of European civilization.
"There was subordination at that time, and in fact, because of this, the site and the culture in general that developed in the region of the Varna Lakes are unique," said archaeologist Stanimir Parvanov.
Since the resumption of excavations, 34 DNA samples have been collected and analyzed in search of family ties. The task of archaeologists is to collect as much as possible for a more complete picture.
"Whether some of the richer graves are connected, whether there are various interlayers that are genetically, kin-related," explains Stanimir Parvanov.
"If, for example, the graves with more objects turn out to be closely related to each other, at this point we can talk about a sequence that is passed down through the kinship line. If they do not have such a relationship, then we can talk about a personal status," added the archaeologist Vladimir Slavchev. Until now, a large part of the studied new complexes were opened already in the Chalcolithic and have few objects in them.
"Perhaps they were looking for expensive things, and perhaps they used part of their bones to make amulets or various objects, which are believed to give them a spiritual connection with the other world," explained Vladimir Slavchev. Archaeologists currently do not know what part of the entire necropolis they have uncovered. In the coming year, they intend to dig in this place. https://novini247.com/novini/novi-us...n_5236872.html