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R1b 💯 since Greek is a Centum languageOriginally Posted by JQP4545
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Nope it wasn't. So far no J2b2-L283 has been found among any Bell Beaker culture or Corded Ware nor does anything suggests Illyrian came from Corded Ware or Central Europe or Hallstatt nor does anything suggests J2b2 came from there. Nor is there any compelling evidence that J2b2 came from the Steppes but it is possible it was a minor lineage among Yamnaya and hit a boom, so far no J2b2 in Yamnaya nor Corded Ware. It is nothing but speculation that you have no evidence for. Your theory certainly also does not explain why J2b2 peaks among modern Albanians for it to be a lineage that supposedly was picked up unlike E-V13 which is much more widespread outside the Albanian sphere. J2b2 which also appears in Medieval Albania.
Even Yugoslav archaeologists do not consider Illyrians as Corded Ware but Bronze Age people from Vucedol. Other cultures that came later had not much impact.
Most of the R1b lineages we have among Illyrians so far are Yamnaya derived including the one found in Vucedol and the ones found in Northern Albania that were found together with J2b2 such as R-Z2103+ and R-PF7563+ , these same lineages were found among the Daunians and Iapygians/Messapians in Southern Italy who are believed to of been Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians and to of come from the Western Balkans , their language by linguists is also believed to be related to Albanian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language together these Y-DNA lineages make some of the most common Albanian Y-DNA today.
Maros btw was definitely not beaker, it dates to post Vucedol and they found again R1b-Z2103 and J2b2 together, J2b2 also has been found in Moldova around the steppes and in the Maykop. It was found among Etruscans but the R1b in Etruscans is not related to Yamnaya but to Beaker and other groups and Etruscans in general are believed to of been a non-IE people, indicating they absorbed IE or some IE group adopted their language. And most Etruscan samples were R1b, ca 75%. The J2b2 branch in Etruscans is similar to one found in Dalmatia, the J2b2 in Southern Balkans belongs to a different branch, suggesting different tribes of Illyrians carried different branches of J2b2 rather than indicating different group of people all together since most of their R1b we have so far are the same branch which are directly linked to Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware. Also some J2b2 branch from Northern Balkans was also carried by Southern Balkan tribes and vice versa.
The R1b branches we have from Central Europe, Celts, Italics and Corded Ware in general are different from the Illyrians we have so far found in Vucedol and Northern Albania and among Messapic.
Again this is also just an assumption. Your idea is based on one single R1b branch found in the Western Balkans which could either be due to contact with people from other side of the Adriatic or other cultural influence. Cetina is a Post Vucedol derived culture. J2b2 appears in Maros and post Vucedol together with R1b-Z2103 which is a lineage among Yamnaya, and they appear also together in Northern Albania and among Messapians / Daunians. J2b2 and R1b appear in Maykop. J2b2 appears in the Steppes around Moldova. These are all before it appears among Etruscans. No J2b2 in any Corded Ware.
The J2b2 in Etruscans could aswell be the result of contact with the other side of the Adriatic. But we also have J2b2 in Sardinia.
Your migration hypothesis from Central Europe is nothing but an assumption. The fact that J2b2 had a fancy elite burial is because that specific person was related to physical activity / warrior. First evidence we have of Indo European migrations into Vucedol is from one R1b-Z2103 which also had the same genetic profile as Cetina Bronze Age J2b2 and the rest of Vucedol are Y-DNA G and heavy Neolithic which clearly shows Yamnaya directly mixed with Neolithic natives.
You ignore all the genetic evidence we have so far in Northern Albanian, Messapian and Vucedol based on some theory that has no evidence. Some theory where you wish this J2b2 Y-DNA is related to some kind of proto-Illyrian culture that supposedly came from Corded Ware when there is no evidence. There is even no evidence so far that suggests J2b2 is an Indo European derived Y-DNA but it could very well be from the Steppes with Yamnaya migrations and definitely not Corded Ware.
As for E-V13 and R1b , certainly nothing suggests Albanian language came from such nor Thracian or Dacian based on their placenames which does not even correspond with Albanian nor Illyrian and there are no linguists these days that hold Albanian to be Thracian or Dacian. Some unattested language that was neither Illyrian or any of those is nothing but a theory that has no evidence since most paleo-Balkan people that were not Greek belonged to one of those two and the term ''Illyrian'' was first applied to tribes that lived in Montenegro/Albania.
The Dardani were Glasinac-Mati, they were Illyrians.
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No Bell Beaker J2b2 found so far nor any Corded Ware, your theory isn't supported by any kind of evidence, mostly J2b2 in post Vucedol culture such as Maros, Cetina and also J2b2 in Maykop and Moldova.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_B...lture#Genetics
60% of the Y-DNA we have in Northern Albania from the Iron Age I believe is R1b and Yamnaya derived and not Corded Ware nor Bell Beaker.Lee et al. (2012) detected R1b two male skeletons from a German Bell Beaker site dated to 2600–2500 BC at Kromsdorf, one of which tested positive for M269 but negative for its U106 subclade (note that the P312 subclade was not tested for), while for the other skeleton the M269 test was unclear.[48]
Haak et al. (2015) analyzed the remains of a later Bell Beaker male skeleton from Quedlinburg, Germany, dated to 2296–2206 BC. The individual carried haplogroup R1b1a2a1a2 (R-P312). The study found that the Bell Beakers and people of the Unetice culture had less ancestry from the Yamnaya culture than from the earlier Corded Ware culture. The authors took this to be a sign of a resurgence of the indigenous inhabitants of Western Europe in the aftermath of the Yamnaya expansion.[49]
Allentoft et al. (2015) found the people of the Beaker culture to be closely genetically related to the Corded Ware culture, the Unetice culture and the Nordic Bronze Age.[50]
In yet another 2015 study published in Nature, the remains of eight individuals ascribed to the Beaker culture were analyzed. Two individuals were determined to belong to Haplogroup R1, while the remaining six were determined to belong to haplogroup R1b1a2 and various subclades of it.[51]
A study published in Nature in February 2018 confirmed that Bell Beaker males carried almost exclusively R1b, but the very first ones (in Iberia) had no Steppe autosomes or R at all.[52]
Papac et al. (2021) found in the region of Bohemia, Czech Republic, Bell Beaker culture's male individuals featuring Y-haplogroup R1b-P312, radiocarbon-dated to between 2400 and 2100 BC.[53]
Most of the R1b we have among Illyrians so far are Yamnaya derived and not Bell Beaker.
Some non Yamnaya Y-DNA R1b found from the Bronze Age doesn't prove much either way
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I am not trying to offend you here or anything. No offence and I respect your opinion. But you ignore all genetic evidence we have so far based on your own wishful thinking personal theory. This is because you are apparently J2b2 yourself so you want this personal theory of yours to be true but leave your personal bias aside. You assume a J2b2 expansion from Bell Beaker and Corded Ware without absolutely no evidence. Despite it has never been found there and appears in Maros, Moldova, Maykop and Cetina. Maros and Cetina dates to post-Vucedol. You claim some J2b2 expansion from Corded Ware supposedly subjugated Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 Vucedol without any evidence despite these same Y-DNA's also appear among Messapians and in Northern Albania and in Maros together. This is absolutely insanse theory
Also most of the R1b we have in Vucedol, Northern Albania and among Messapians are Yamnaya derived and not Corded Ware or Bell Beaker.
So where are your J2b2 and R1b Corded Ware or Bell Beakers that you keep talking about ?
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Oldest J2b2-L283 found in the Balkans btw was found in Maros Culture in Northern Serbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokrin
It's a Post-Vucedol culture where it appears together with R1b-Z2103 , a Yamnaya derived Y-DNA. They appear again in Northern Albania and among Messapians.
Your theory is absolutely nuts dude backed up by no evidence
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So where are your J2b2 Bell Beaker or Corded Ware , how come most of the R1b Y-DNA we have in the Balkans it not related to Corded Ware or Bell Beaker ?
According to Malmström et al. (2019), neither R1a nor R1b-M269 have been reported among Neolithic populations of central and western Europe, although it was common among earlier hunter gatherers of Eastern Europe.[66] Haak et al. note that their results suggest that these haplogroups "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BC."[7]
The majority of CWC-men carried haplogroup R1a-M417, the remaining ones R1b and I2a.[66] Note that, although related to the Corded Ware population, studied Yamnaya males mainly carried R1b-Z2103, while R1b-bearing Corded Ware males had R1b-L51, suggesting that Corded Ware culture males cannot be directly patrilineally descended from Yamnaya individuals.[f] Yet, Linderholm et al. (2020) found seven CW males which were narrowed down to either R1b-M269 or R-L11,[67] while Allentoft et al. (2015) report two CW males with R1b,[1] and Fürtwangler et al. (2020) report three CW males with R1b.[68] According to Sjögren et al. (2020), R1b-M269 "is the major lineage associated with the arrival of Steppe ancestry in western Europe after 2500 BC[E]."[69]
Papac et al. (2021) argue that the differences in Y-DNA between early CW and Yamnaya males suggest that the Yamnaya culture did not have a direct role in the origins and expansion of the Corded Ware culture.[6] They found that a majority of early Corded Ware males in Bohemia belonged to R1b-L151, while R1a lineages became predominant over time.[6] The study detected a reduction in male haplogroup diversity over time, reducing from five different lineages in early CW to a single dominant lineage, R1a-M417(xZ645), in late CW. The authors suggest that males of this haplogroup had around 15% more surviving offspring per generation compared to other males, which may have been caused by "selection, social structure, or influx of nonlocal R1a-M417(xZ645) lineages."[6] The sample included one individual ancestral to haplogroup R1b-P312, which is the most common male lineage found in individuals of the Bell Beaker culture.[6]
This is an absolute nuts theory of yours dude , I know of course you read this forum.
J2b2 Corded Ware subjugated Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 ? My god you are nuts
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E-V13 btw isn't neccessarily a proto-Thracian / Dacian marker only , mostly appears in the Iron Age. We have one in Iron Age Croatia and several from Roman Croatia also. that are close to the Illyrian Iron Age cluster. And we have several in Sicily from a Greek Army from the Iron Age, and these E-V13 interesting enough cluster like Iron Age Illyrians. The E-V13 found in Eastern Serbia from Roman period is not related to Albanian E-V13 neither is the one found in Bulgaria. We have E-V13 also in Slovakia, Hungary etc.
Most samples we have from the Balkans from Roman Period are more East compared to the Iron Age anyway including J2b2 and E-V13 and cluster close to modern Albanians indicating Slavic influence in Albanians certainly cannot be much. We will see eventually where E-V13 fits or how it spread.
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Those two J2b2 Etruscans and Sardinians are most likely due to contact with people from the Western Balkans:
Lazaridis & Alpaslan-Roodenberg 2022, pp. 322:
Oldest samples we have so far are from the Balkans.J-Z2507 (within J2) is found in 21 individuals ... In the ancient data we find it in 3 samples from Rome,(436) with the earliest being R474.SG (700-600 BCE). All remaining samples are from the Balkans and indeed the Western Balkans (Montenegro, Croatia, Albania) and most of them are from the Bronze Age. Thus, J-Z2507 has a peri-Adriatic ancient distribution in agreement with the present-day distribution and may represent a Bronze Age or later expansion in the area. The immediately upstream nodes of J-Z2507 are J-Z585, J-Z615, J-Z597 with a similar time depth and include two additional Bronze Age samples from Albania and Croatia, and are thus part of the same pattern. J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome)
I know I quoted wikipedia but wikipedia should never be quoted actually. Nothing suggests Vucedol was Bell Beaker either. No Bell Beaker Y-DNA in Vucedol. No J2b2 in Bell Beaker, No J2b2 in Corded Ware, No Bell Beaker Y-DNA in Maros from what I know. Mostly Yamnaya derived R1b + J2b2 in Maros, R1b-Z2103 in Vucedol.
Yamnaya derived Y-DNA mostly in Albania together with J2b2 , same among Messapians.
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Basically R1b branches found among Albanians have already been found in Vucedol and Iron Age Northern Albania together with J2b2 which were also found in Daunians/Messapians, but according to this Brazilian nutcase this is apparently all a coincidence. No no the actual Albanian came apparently with E-V13, which at this point does not even look to of been a common proto-Albanian marker.
This nutcase believes J2b2 is some kind of Bell Beaker / Corded Ware derived Y-DNA when all the oldest J2b2 we have so far are from Maros and Moldova and around close to the Steppes, In Maros it is found together with R1b-z2103. No j2b2 bell beaker or corded ware . The R1b among Corded Ware and Bell Beaker are different from the Illyrian ones in Vucedol, Messapians, and Iron Age Albania.
That paper you are referring to mainly is talking about Y-DNA such as R1b-Z2103 which is known to of come with Yamnaya. Nowhere does it say Illyrian came from Central Europe or that Albanian isn't derived from Illyrian.
Still waiting for that oldest J2b2 Bell Beaker / Corded Ware of yours to show up , maybe in some kind of alternative universe.
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J2b2 did not come from Bell Beaker nor from Central Europe nor did proto-Illyrians come from any kind of Corded Ware or Beall Beaker. There is not a single evidence for it. J2b2 peaks in modern Albanians. Both are found in Iron Age Albania with R1b. He is talking about R1b-Z2103 found in Iron Age Albania , what most of Albanian Y-DNA are you talking about ? J2b2 is an Albanian Y-DNA. R1b branches in Illyrians came directly from Yamnaya as did Albanian. This is what Vucedol, Iron Age Albania and Messapic shows too.
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...cBronzeAge.pdfYamnaya burial custom and with the R-Z2103 haplogroup typical of the steppe Yamnaya) and one from Albania
(Çinamak) belonging to the high-steppe ancestry group. By the Late Bronze Age (late 2nd millennium BCE) and later, no high-steppe
ancestry individuals are observed, but steppeassociated Y chromosomes persist, including R-Z2106, a lineage that links North Macedonia (Ulanci-Veles), Albania (Çinamak), the steppe, and Armenia. The population of Southeastern Europe contrasts strongly with those of the Central/Northern Europe and Eurasian steppe archaeological cultures of ~3000 to 2000 BCE that were strongly associated with particular Y-chromosome lineages: Afanasievo (4, 34) with the same R-Z2103 as the Yamnaya, Corded Ware/Fatyanovo/Sintashta (4, 8, 34, 35) with R-M417, and Beaker (36) with R-L51. In Southeastern Europe during the Bronze Age, we
detect 32/30/21/11 Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroups R/J/I/G linking it with Central/ Northern Europe and the steppe/West Asia/ local hunter gatherers/Anatolian-European Neolithic farmers, respectively. Together with the extraordinary heterogeneity in autosomal ancestry in the Balkans, a picture emerges of a fragmented genetic landscape that may well parallel the poorly understood linguistic diversity in the ancient Balkans, which among
Indo-Europeanlanguagesincludes Paleo-Balkan speakers before the spread of Latin and Slavic, with Albanian as the only surviving representative. Did the early Indo-European language become successful in Southeastern Europe because it functioned as a “lingua franca,” facilitating communication among speakers of the diverse languages of previous farmer and hunter-gatherer populations?
The R1b branch found in Croatia and Slovenia are not from Illyrians but from contact with Bell Beakers. All other Y-DNA like R1b-Z2103, J2b2 etc and some other did not come from any Bell Beakers nor have they ever been found.
E-V13 is not even a marker that is considered to of come from the Steppes. Where on earth is your evidence that E-v13 is some kind of proto-Albanian marker ? Albanian language is related to Messapic where we have the same Y-DNA found. E-V13 is completely irrelevant in this case and could of been picked up at any time.
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