Are Muslim Balkaners culturally European?

[Rizza]

Christianity is part of being culturally European. I think it was the atheist Aron Ra who said, you cannot speak English without the Christian influence.

Sorry. I disagree. And I'm not anti-Christian. But you cannot claim all Europeans who are not Christians as culturally non-European. Paganism is far older in Europe than Christianity which spread later. Christianity today in many European countries also does not play any significant role just like Islam does not play much role in some Muslim liberal places. In some areas it did not spread until late. Christianity, was a middle eastern religion, that has reformed to fit European cultural norms. Let's not talk about Christianity before 19th-20th century. By your logic I guess Africans and Asians who are Christians are culturally European. Some populations were Christians before any other but changed religion.

Christianity in Scandinavia was also spread by the sword.

[Östsvensk]

Sorry. I disagree. And I'm not anti-Christian. But you cannot claim all Europeans who are not Christians as culturally non-European. Paganism is far older in Europe than Christianity which spread later. Christianity today in many European countries also does not play any significant role just like Islam does not play much role in some Muslim liberal places. In some areas it did not spread until late. Christianity, was a middle eastern religion, that has reformed to fit European cultural norms. Let's not talk about Christianity before 19th-20th century. By your logic I guess Africans and Asians who are Christians are culturally European. Some populations were Christians before any other but changed religion.

Christianity in Scandinavia was also spread by the sword.

I wouldn't say being Muslim makes you non-European per default. Although Islam can be problematic because it tends to be anti-European and anti-Christian. I'm not saying Balkan Muslims are, though. I think because they are white, they don't have the same resentment against Christian Europeans as many other Muslims have, as this is mainly a racial hatred and/or inferiority complex. But in a conflict between the two, which side would Balkan Muslims pick?

[Incal]

Only if they pass this test:



Yummy.

[Tooting Carmen]

Photos from 1930s, Bosnia

Looks more like Afghanistan!

[Dušan]

Looks more like Afghanistan!

And few quite different - local Orthodox Serbs










Asia and Europe next to each other.

[RogueState]

I will sound presumptuous but since I am one of the few actual Balkan Muslim in this forum and since I have big interest on cultural anthropology (in general), I assume I can give a legitimate answer

One main issue first is to define "Europeanness" as a cultural identity, but I don't have time or envy to write extensively about this since it is outside the scope of this thread.

Anyway, as much I don't believe there is an "Africanness" nor an "Asianness", I don't believe we can reduce Europe as an homogenous cultural block, but rather different continuums of civilizations that spread accross geographic lines (e.g. the Northwest mostly Protestant, the Latin Catholic area, the Orthodox Slavic world, the Balkans, which for me is a Byzantine-Ottoman synthesis, ...)

For instance, I guess most people will project and confuse "Europeanness" based upon the hegemonic Anglo-Saxon/Northwest European Protestand-influenced "civilization", the roots of White America (WASPs), that are well summarized in this pic :


If these are the core features of "Europeanness", not only Balkan Muslims deviate from this, but many Orthodox Slavic people or Southern Europeans.

It is true though that Islam aggravates the deviation from these features, fundamentally by re-inforcing patriarchal/socially conservative values (differences of gender roles, low women employment, macho culture, traditional family as life goal, ...), having a more passive spirit (laidback, not rushing after Time, a form of fatalism, accepting Destiny) in contrast with Protestant work ethic (promoting innovation, industriousness, challenging status quo), but then again these are deviations that intensify the more East and South you go out of the Northwest European core center that are not just tied to Islam (like in the Balkans, and once you cross the Mediterranean and go to MENA, it deviates even more, regardless the religion).

Having this in mind, both from a theoritical point of view (distance to core Northwest Europe + Islam as an aggravating factor) + IRL experiences from my own, I would say the most "Ottoman~Oriental" feeling in the Balkans, is not among Bosnia Muslims but among Albanians from the Prizren-Tetovo-Kumanovo-Skoplje area. Any Serb or other Orthodox Slav going there will get a more "exotic" vibe than going to Sarajevo.

For instance, this rural circumcision celebration in Stružje (village in Kosovo, just between Prizren and Tetovo in Macedonia) would be a "good" example of this "exotic" atmosphere for the average European, despite being populated by ethnic-genetical European people, much more than any ceremonies in Bosnia.


Wedding celebrations are also good manifestations of "deviation" from the "average" Europeanness (although as I said before, I disagree with it since it's a wrong and inaccurate concept, but whatever, for the sake of "average" folk knowledge, let's assume it is relevant)

[Tooting Carmen]

I will sound presumptuous but since I am one of the few actual Balkan Muslim in this forum and since I have big interest on cultural anthropology (in general), I assume I can give a legitimate answer

One main issue first is to define "Europeanness" as a cultural identity, but I don't have time or envy to write extensively about this since it is outside the scope of this thread.

Anyway, as much I don't believe there is an "Africanness" nor an "Asianness", I don't believe we can reduce Europe as an homogenous cultural block, but rather different continuums of civilizations that spread accross geographic lines (e.g. the Northwest mostly Protestant, the Latin Catholic area, the Orthodox Slavic world, the Balkans, which for me is a Byzantine-Ottoman synthesis, ...)

For instance, I guess most people will project and confuse "Europeanness" based upon the hegemonic Anglo-Saxon/Northwest European Protestand-influenced "civilization", the roots of White America (WASPs), that are well summarized in this pic :


If these are the core features of "Europeanness", not only Balkan Muslims deviate from this, but many Orthodox Slavic people or Southern Europeans.

It is true though that Islam aggravates the deviation from these features, fundamentally by re-inforcing patriarchal/socially conservative values (differences of gender roles, low women employment, macho culture, traditional family as life goal, ...), having a more passive spirit (laidback, not rushing after Time, a form of fatalism, accepting Destiny) in contrast with Protestant work ethic (promoting innovation, industriousness, challenging status quo), but then again these are deviations that intensify the more East and South you go out of the Northwest European core center that are not just tied to Islam (like in the Balkans, and once you cross the Mediterranean and go to MENA, it deviates even more, regardless the religion).

Having this in mind, both from a theoritical point of view (distance to core Northwest Europe + Islam as an aggravating factor) + IRL experiences from my own, I would say the most "Ottoman~Oriental" feeling in the Balkans, is not among Bosnia Muslims but among Albanians from the Prizren-Tetovo-Kumanovo-Skoplje area. Any Serb or other Orthodox Slav going there will get a more "exotic" vibe than going to Sarajevo.

For instance, this rural circumcision celebration in Stružje (village in Kosovo, just between Prizren and Tetovo in Macedonia) would be a "good" example of this "exotic" atmosphere for the average European, despite being populated by ethnic-genetical European people, much more than any ceremonies in Bosnia.


Wedding celebrations are also good manifestations of "deviation" from the "average" Europeanness (although as I said before, I disagree with it since it's a wrong and inaccurate concept, but whatever, for the sake of "average" folk knowledge, let's assume it is relevant)

Thank you. About time we moved on from this notion of Europe = the Northwest.

[Teutone]

I wanted to vote Yes.

What is European Culture?

Is European culture the same after Luther, Capitalism and Enlightenment? No its not, the fact that Islam in Europe arrived around 700AD and is a religion that (rightfully) rejects reformations a Muslim Bosniak is culturally closer to the mindset and cultural history of his ancestors than Sören from Stockholm that lives in a Apartment with Japanese furniture, eating exotic West African food daily, speaks more English than Danish and generally rejects tradition,religion and collectivism.

Islam is a blessing to the Chechens,Dagestanis,Bosniaks,Turks and Albanians and these countries would be better off without a history ot Atatürks,Titos and Hoxhas.

[Teutone]

And few quite different - local Orthodox Serbs










Asia and Europe next to each other.

Both better than the streets of today?

[RogueState]

Both better than the streets of today?

Postmodernity is a process of acculturation and destruction of any deep identity, history and traditions. The "postmodern" individual, while believing arrogantly that he is "free", is just a rootless, from a "blank slate" person therefore easily filled with any crappy trend or "ideologies", that are just self-destructive poison for him, at individual level but also for the collective West.

We can indeed ironically (and a bit provocatively) point out that the postmodern individual is maybe even further from the deep historical "European" culture than the traditional Balkan Muslim person.

But that's another level regarding the discussion on this thread : indeed, the real question that we must ascertain, is not "are we close to European culture ?" but "should we be close to European culture ?", especially if the new "Europeanness" metrics is the leftist-secular progressive woke culture... And paradoxically, more and more ethnic White Christian European start, maybe not to the point of admiration, but at least, have genuine respect for the Islamic world, for preserving "traditional values", closer to them, than many so-called progressive leftists