Are Muslim Balkaners culturally European?

[Cristiano viejo]

Christians cannot be culturally European either and Christianity is not a European religion originally.

Since Christiniaty forms part of 99,9% of Europe (except Albania and Bosnia), of course is part of the European culture.

[Dušan]

Btw, every day in my hood there are some immigrants blasting folk music and first I believed those are Arabs or Pakistanis.

they were Balkanites, probably muslim Slavs from Sandžak region in Serbia/Montenegro.

Yala yala

This Bosniak woman went to Dubai and became 20th wife of some sheikh.

[placebo]

How is that possible?
Selcuk bey declared war to the non-Muslim Oghuzes after becoming Muslim, tribes who followed him accepted Islam(and automatically Persian traditions too). His descendant Alp Arslan conquered big parts of Westasia, Anatolia was islamized by Turkish tribes and beys. One of them became the Ottoman Empire, like you said later they became Caliphate too so how it is it possible that Turks aren't a part of Islamic world? Because you are irreligious you cannot delate historical facts which formed cultural qualities of a nation. My German friends are mostly irreligious still it was Christianity which formed nowadays German civilization, they are a part of Christian world no matter what they are(or not) believing now?

You probably never travelled outside of Turkey. If you leave former Austro-Hungarian territories and enter Balkan land which were influenced by Ottomans for many centuries, you will feel vibes which are different to rest of Europe. Cok cahilsin gardas.

you don't need the give history class, we talking about islamic civilization and i said even ottomans not exactly part of islamic civilization. i'm not saying they are not part of islamic civilization. even our traditions different than levantine or gulf arabs how can our culture is fully islamic civilization? there is clearly a central asian influence in our culture and bosnians and albanians learn islam from turks.

i travelled outside, not much, but i travelled and i know ex-ottoman territories are different than the other parts of europe. it's very normal because we don't have european culture.

[Rizza]

Hmm. From my own experience I have seen Bosniaks who think highly of Turkey (ottoman empire) and those who HATE what turks have done in the past.

For instance, my dad HATES turks and what they did to christians during their occupations. He believes that the Yugoslav civil war was caused by a combination of extremists who were able to convince people to do bad things and also past trauma from the Ottomans against the Christians.

Serbs were privileged Christians under Ottomans:

The Catholic Church in Kosovo was poor, and was frequently under pressure not only from the Ottoman authorities but also from the Orthodox Church, which tried to force the Catholics to pay it ecclesiastical dues. Within one year of the reinstatement of the Serbian Patriarchate, the new Patriarch Makarije had obtained an imperial firman (decree) that all Christians in his territory must pay their church taxes to him. 50 Such moves by the Orthodox Church, which were always eventually reversed by the diplomatic efforts of the Catholic powers in Istanbul, were a recurrent feature of Orthodox-Catholic relations: a similar firman was granted, for example, in 1661 and only withdrawn in 1665/6, thanks to the efforts of a Scottish general, Walter Leslie, who was acting as an envoy of the Austrian Emperor. A letter survives from Ndre Bogdani in Janjevo in 1664, complaining bitterly about this; he said that the Patriarch, who resided in the nearby monastery of Gracanica, was trying to extract a tribute of 100 scudi (roughly 15,000 akces) from the Catholics, and described the Orthodox - who he said were protected by the Ottomans - as the Catholics' worst enemies.

It is certainly true that the Orthodox Church was looked on with less suspicion by the Ottoman government: the Catholics owed their religious allegiance to a foreign power, the Papacy, whereas the Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek Orthodox Churches all lay within the territory of the Empire. The finances of the Serbian Church were also linked with those of the state: as early as the 1570s the practice had grown up of Patriarchs paying a large annual ‘gift' to the Sultan (120,000 akces in 1578) for the continuance of their rights. This would lead eventually to wholesale simony, the submission of huge financial bids to the Sultan for the privilege of being appointed Patriarch. The money was recouped from an annual tax paid by each Orthodox household (twelve akces for the Church, twelve for the Patriarch in person); parishioners paid taxes, and charges for religious services, to their priests, and the priests paid a tax to their bishops. One Catholic cleric wrote of the Orthodox priests in the Pec Patriarchate in 1640: ‘they are extremely grasping, and will not administer the sacraments without payment; they also require money for giving absolution on the point of death, and they bargain for payment for giving the viaticum [eucharist for the dying]'.

Compared with the Catholic Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo was certainly much larger, richer, more established and more privileged. This helps to explain why a much lower proportion of its members converted to Islam. It was also apparently skilful in using its family connections with the Ottoman administration (most of them, probably, resulting from the dev§irme system): one Catholic report in the early seventeenth century commented that the monks of Pec were all related to beys and sancakbeyis. 55 And yet, as we have seen, there were Patriarchs such as Jovan (1592- 1614) who were so determined to throw off Ottoman rule that they willingly turned to Catholic powers for help. This move happened to coincide with a new enthusiasm in the Papacy for forming 'Uniate' or 'Greek Catholic' Churches - that is, Orthodox Churches which acknowledged the primacy of the Pope and were accepted into the Catholic church

That the Ottoman authorities showed some tolerance to the Serbian Orthodox church
becomes apparent through the fact that in 1557 the Patriarchate of Pec was reinstated. Orthodox Serbs now gained the status of millet; a religious community that enjoyed high levels of autonomy. This lead to Orthodox monasteries and churches being rebuilt in
Kosovo, and revived monastic life.

[Rizza]

Hmm. From my own experience I have seen Bosniaks who think highly of Turkey (ottoman empire) and those who HATE what turks have done in the past.

For instance, my dad HATES turks and what they did to christians during their occupations. He believes that the Yugoslav civil war was caused by a combination of extremists who were able to convince people to do bad things and also past trauma from the Ottomans against the Christians.

My friend, learn some real history, don't believe so much in Serbo-Chetnik propaganda, these people were some of the most privileged Christians within the Ottoman Empire:

A letter survives from Ndre Bogdani in Janjevo in 1664, complaining bitterly about this; he said that the Patriarch, who resided in the nearby monastery of Gracanica, was trying to extract a tribute of 100 scudi (roughly 15,000 akces) from the Catholics, and described the Orthodox - who he said were protected by the Ottomans - as the Catholics' worst enemies.

- Kosovo: A Short History



In fact, their Patriarch, Arsenije, wrote a letter to the Ottomans asking to come back to Kosovo.

[rothaer]

Of course they were culturaly completely MENA, less than 100 years ago.

In fact all this Abrahamitic stuff is pretty MENA.



Greek, Roman, Germanic and Slavic gods are not.

[Mejgusu]

you don't need the give history class, we talking about islamic civilization and i said even ottomans not exactly part of islamic civilization.

No, you are. Islamic civilization is not only one culture, like Christian or European civilization is not one thing.

even our traditions different than levantine

Not entirely true. Both cultures have Byzantine and Persian influences, and the Ottoman influence is very big there.

or gulf arabs

True. Turks have different culture to the Bambara or Javanese people too, still all of them are a part of Islamic world.

how can our culture is fully islamic civilization?

I dont know. How can birds fly?

here is clearly a central asian influence in our culture and bosnians and albanians learn islam from turks.

Thats true brother. But the Central Asian culture includes Islam too, we had this discussion thousands of times.

[Dušan]

Btw, every day in my hood there are some immigrants blasting folk music and first I believed those are Arabs or Pakistanis.

they were Balkanites, probably muslim Slavs from Sandžak region in Serbia/Montenegro.

Here are Bosniaks in Sisak, Croatia - where new mosque is opened recently.

[Rizza]

@Dusanovic

What do you think about your so called ''Great Migration from Kosovo 1690'' ?

Mr. Malcolm, who taught at Cambridge University for seven years, has taken aim at many of the accepted conventions of Serbian history. Like other historians before him, he disputes the Serbs' sacred founding myth, that the courageous though unsuccessful resistance of the Serbs to the Ottoman Turks in Kosovo in 1389 ended the Serbian empire. He says it began to fall apart three decades earlier. And he takes issue with another cherished belief: that when the Austrian Army penetrated Kosovo in 1689 and forced the Ottoman Turks out of the region, the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, Arsenije Crnojevic, inspired local Serbs to join the Austrians against the Turks; that on New Year's Day, 1690, the Austrians were defeated in battle by the Turks, and that Crnojevic then led a retreat from Kosovo, allowing the Muslim Albanians to settle the area.

Mr. Malcolm insists that Austrians were met not by Crnojevic, but by the Albanian Catholic Archbishop, Pjeter Bogdani. Moreover, he says, the Patriarch led no ''Great Migration'' of Serbs out of Kosovo but simply cut and ran.

According to Anscombe, the Great Migration reconciles romantic national history with late modern reality, portraying Albanians of Kosovo as descendants of Ottoman-sponsored transplants who settled after the expulsion of the Serb population and supposedly took over the control of the territory,[30] thus replaying of a "second Battle of Kosovo"[31] and continual struggle for freedom.[30] Frederick Anscombe further concludes that there is no evidence for this,[32] and that western and parts of central Kosovo were treated as Ottoman Albania before Habsburg invasion in 1690

Malcolm suggests that most of the Serb refugees did not come from Kosovo and that Arsenije never led an exodus from Kosovo as his departure had been extremely hasty. He notes that Toma Raspasani, who had barely escaped the Turks from Western Kosovo during the Austrian retreat, wrote himself later that "Nobody was able to get out".[36][37] Malcolm contends that Arsenije had been in Montenegro and then fled to Belgrade, a stronghold still under Austrian control, and which became a natural destination for many Serb refugees from all Serb lands.[38][39] Those who gathered there included people from parts of Kosovo (Mainly Eastern Kosovo) who had been able to escape the Ottoman incursion but most refugees were probably from other areas.[40]

[Dušan]

@Dusanovic

What do you think about your so called ''Great Migration from Kosovo 1690'' ?

Hi Albo troll,

I already told you that Noel Malcolm, as Albanian and Bosniak Muslim lobyist, is not reliable and objective source of informations.

Malcolm used to be the Chairman of the Bosnian Institute, London,[7] and President of the Anglo-Albanian Association.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Malcolm#Career


So stop spreading his anti-Serb propaganda.