Stats regarding unemployment, employment rates, economic inactivity and occupation per ethnic group

[RogueState]

Definitely not, non-White minorities are still underrepresented among political elites (but it's not the case in local politics though, at municipality level, they are well represented), but it's a matter of time

[Petalpusher]

I still maintain that, for various reasons, France's immigrant groups tend to be poorer than Britain's. Just looking at the statistics I posted: even though Blacks, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in particular have higher rates of unemployment and lower-than-average proportions in middle-class occupations, the percentage differences between even them and Whites are somewhat less dramatic than stereotypes and assumptions would suggest. What's more, is it possible to envisage France having such a multiracial cabinet as the British ones have been in recent years (and under Tory governments, no less)?

Certainly because there are less social benefits in UK.

The official stat gives x2.8 more unemployement from extra EU foreigners

https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques...mmaire=3696937

En 2017, le taux de chômage des étrangers non originaires de l’Union européenne (24 %) est 2,8 fois plus élevé que celui des personnes de nationalité française (9 %). Cette différence est un peu plus marquée pour les femmes (26 %, contre 9 % pour les femmes de nationalité française). Environ 6 % des actifs sont étrangers. Ces derniers sont surreprésentés parmi les ouvriers (11 % sont étrangers) et les artisans, commerçants et chefs d’entreprises de 10 salariés ou plus (8 %). Ils sont au contraire sous-représentés parmi les professions intermédiaires (3 %) et les cadres (5 %).

En 2017, la proportion d’étrangers dans la population de l’Union européenne (UE) est de 7,5 %, soit une part proche de celle observée en France (6,9 %).

In said "Banlieue" it's 1/4 to 1/3 of unemployement regardless of citizenship but ethnically very close to 100% immigrants (EU included)

https://www.histoire-immigration.fr/...-des-etrangers

Le taux de chômage dans les quartiers dits « prioritaires » de la politique de la ville s’élève à 23,4 % soit près de trois fois plus que dans les quartiers environnants (8,9 %), (« Bien vivre dans les quartiers prioritaires », rapport annuel 2019 de l’Observatoire national de la politique de la ville (ONPV), 2020). Chez les jeunes actifs de moins de 30 ans, le taux approche même les 33 %, contre 15 % dans les autres quartiers. La moindre qualification des habitants de ces quartiers ne constitue pas une explication suffisante puisque par exemple le taux de chômage est de 16 % pour les bac + 2 et plus, contre 6 % dans les quartiers avoisinants, soit près de trois fois plus. Les explications sont nombreuses : réseau social, mobilité, type de diplôme, adresse sur un CV, ou encore sentiment d’illégitimité, (in)adaption entre les formations et les profils de poste…

[Tooting Carmen]

@RogueState and Petalpusher, feel free to disagree, but my two main hypotheses that explain the difference between Britain and France in this regard are:

(1) The quality of immigration. France hasn't really had a mass immigration of mostly middle-class people comparable to the East African Indians who came to Britain in 1968-75, fleeing the dictatorships of Kenyatta and Idi Amin. (A similar example would be the anti-Castro Cubans in the US). Furthermore, the universality of English has meant that, among the middle and upper-classes in all sorts of countries, it is now common for them to speak it and thus in many cases they aim to come to Britain to work and/or study.

(2) French culture vs British culture. Compared to Britain, France tends to have a more collectivist-nationalist-socialist culture, only that on this issue the 'nationalist' rejection of (real or perceived) outsiders often overrides the 'socialist' sense of empathy, equality and internationalism. In contrast, British culture tends to be more pragmatic/individualistic in comparison - "treat people as they come", "if (s)he is best for the job, (s)he should take it regardless of where they come from" etc etc.

[RogueState]

Indeed, regarding :

1) The bulk of extra-European immigration are indeed lower class Maghrebians and SSA, although there is a more than hundred of thousands Southeast Asian (Indochinois, because it was a colony) who were actually local mixed Chinese-Southeast Asians merchant upper-middle class, so a bit like East African Indians + France has the largest Jewish community in Europe, more than 500,000 people, mostly the upper-class Sephardic North African Jews, that were educated in French even during colonial time, while the more poor, rural North African Jews (that didn't know well French) went to Israel + Ashkenazi Jews. We also have a large Greek and Armenian community (in the South, Marseilles) that escaped Ottoman Empire and genocide, that were often merchants, skilled craftsmen there, and quickly also assimilated into higher classes.

2) True that despite "displayed" universalism, the French corporate world is more endogamous and hierarchic, giving less opportunities for extra-Europeans in practice to climb the social ladder. Although, """thanks""" to accelerating Americanization, implicit "pro-diversity", "affirmative action", "positive discrimination", "virtue-signalling woke" HR policies are becoming more common, so things are changing...

[Petalpusher]

@RogueState and Petalpusher, feel free to disagree, but my two main hypotheses that explain the difference between Britain and France in this regard are:

(1) The quality of immigration. France hasn't really had a mass immigration of mostly middle-class people comparable to the East African Indians who came to Britain in 1968-75, fleeing the dictatorships of Kenyatta and Idi Amin. (A similar example would be the anti-Castro Cubans in the US). Furthermore, the universality of English has meant that, among the middle and upper-classes in all sorts of countries, it is now common for them to speak it and thus in many cases they aim to come to Britain to work and/or study.

(2) French culture vs British culture. Compared to Britain, France tends to have a more collectivist-nationalist-socialist culture, only that on this issue the 'nationalist' rejection of (real or perceived) outsiders often overrides the 'socialist' sense of empathy, equality and internationalism. In contrast, British culture tends to be more pragmatic/individualistic in comparison - "treat people as they come", "if (s)he is best for the job, (s)he should take it regardless of where they come from" etc etc.

1) Maybe

2) My opinion is it has to do with something like this. The whole idea of assimilation, is really just an idea that the vast majority of immigrants don't agree with, wich in turn reject themselves from the society furthermore than the traditional liberalist approach "come here as you are". It's also deeply ingrained into the native's mind now, so in a way it was a double edged sword that failed as people expect them now to be assimilated on a second or third generation. They really appreciate the minority that is indeed assimilated, in the sense, if they speak a very good french and understand intriquate cultural aspects. This sort of politic was brainwashed to French for decades all day long, and most believe in it diehard. Someone like Macron tries to change that view, morphing into a proper multi culturalist society and not an indivisible Republic blind of origins, but this is a long way.

I think this is something quite difficult to understand for other people, i mean even other Europeans, that French can get quite close to not see their color anymore when they have made that process (it's sort of fascinating to see), and on the other hand when they didn't dive in that process, they are almost seen as aliens, literally.

The social benefits side is also important. You can get close to a minimum wage in France if you try to pile up all the benefits even if you have never worked, so there are way less incentives to actually seek a job. While in UK, you can't live on like that or even simply have the means to stay in UK for long without a job.

[Tooting Carmen]

Indeed, regarding :

1) The bulk of extra-European immigration are indeed lower class Maghrebians and SSA, although there is a more than hundred of thousands Southeast Asian (Indochinois, because it was a colony) who were actually local mixed Chinese-Southeast Asians merchant upper-middle class, so a bit like East African Indians + France has the largest Jewish community in Europe, more than 500,000 people, mostly the upper-class Sephardic North African Jews, that were educated in French even during colonial time, while the more poor, rural North African Jews (that didn't know well French) went to Israel + Ashkenazi Jews. We also have a large Greek and Armenian community (in the South, Marseilles) that escaped Ottoman Empire and genocide, that were often merchants, skilled craftsmen there, and quickly also assimilated into higher classes.

2) True that despite "displayed" universalism, the French corporate world is more endogamous and hierarchic, giving less opportunities for extra-Europeans in practice to climb the social ladder. Although, """thanks""" to accelerating Americanization, implicit "pro-diversity", "affirmative action", "positive discrimination", "virtue-signalling woke" HR policies are becoming more common, so things are changing...

(1) Aside from the large Jewish community, I'd still wager that the East African Indians have had a bigger impact (demographically, culturally and economically) in Britain than those other more affluent immigrant groups have done in France.

(2) You talk constantly about "extra-European immigrants" and their difficulties, but then how easily do low-income Portuguese or Polish immigrants and their descendants in France move up socially?

(3) Ironically, I'd say that France's attitudes towards race are more "American" than are Britain's - but in the sense that the races are much more rigidly segregated in the other two countries than in Britain. (True, there are neighbourhoods like Belgrave in Leicester that are almost exclusively Indian, or Balsall Heath in Birmingham that is almost exclusively Pakistani, but still I'd say that neighbourhood segregation is less severe and extreme here than in the other two countries).