Balt like people in antique southern Panonnia

[Dick]

Both Balts and Slavs would have to travel a huge distance trough non-balto-slavic territories to join the Roman army. I don't see why these have to be Slavs in particular. They could also be a third related people which are neither Balts nor Slavs, like the Neuri and Budini mentioned in Greek sources.

What if they were Dacians or Pre-Dacians.

"Southern Baltoidic"

https://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm

Also, what about that "Illyrian" sample with low Snps that disappeared from gedmatch. Wasn't it Baltic-like?

[Karol Klačansky]

if what you are saying is true about early slavs (Them being balts genetically) then it leaves me with some questions.

1) Why do proto-slavic samples from east germany cluster with modern day slavs from pripyat area and are more modern slavic like than baltic?
2) Why are southern slavs dominated by a western ukrainian ydna haplogroup?
3) Why do the majority of modern Russians cluster west of balts though geographically they are farther to the east of them?

From my understand baltic tribes were far more wide spread during antiquity covering large areas of Poland etc. They may have very well been just pure balts who spoke a baltic language while slavs were still growing as a population in Pripyat area.

[vbnetkhio]

True and btw.

SRB_Viminacium_R6759___AD_150,0.124067,0.119832,0. 09164,0.101422,0.047701,0.038208,0.01034,0.017768, 0.001023,-0.039363,-0.004547,-0.019033,0.038057,0.03592,-0.019137,0.003447,0.014994,-0.007095,-0.00088,0.003126,-0.007736,-0.005935,0.003328,-0.007109,-0.002634

actually is in that part of the "North Europe" PCA where no moderns, but BA Latvians and Estonians do plot.

and this is his haplo:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP578/ it's not too rare, but it's mostly limited to Russia, not pan-Slavic.

I don't think this is a Slav. He is probably an early Galindian or from a related tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galind...ern_Galindians

[vbnetkhio]

Never heard for them...

Nah, that's clear for the start. But I don't see why they couldn't be Slavs. They fit with Pohansko and Krakauer Berg samples, also probably with Sicilians mentioned before.
I mean, Slavic homeland was closer to Pannonia than anything furthern north, it was just behind the Carpathians.



Yes, obviously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

[Vega7]

if what you are saying is true about early slavs (Them being balts genetically) then it leaves me with some questions.

1) Why do proto-slavic samples from east germany cluster with modern day slavs from pripyat area and are more modern slavic like than baltic?
2) Why are southern slavs dominated by a western ukrainian ydna haplogroup?
3) Why do the majority of modern Russians cluster west of balts though geographically they are farther to the east of them?

From my understand baltic tribes were far more wide spread during antiquity covering large areas of Poland etc. They may have very well been just pure balts who spoke a baltic language while slavs were still growing as a population in Pripyat area.

This is actually a really good point. Balts were far more widespread and numerous than Slavs or proto-Slavs around 150 AD. Slavs covered a small area and were small in number. So that makes it even more likely that they were Balts.

[Jana]

if what you are saying is true about early slavs (Them being balts genetically) then it leaves me with some questions.

1) Why do proto-slavic samples from east germany cluster with modern day slavs from pripyat area and are more modern slavic like than baltic?
2) Why are southern slavs dominated by a western ukrainian ydna haplogroup?
3) Why do the majority of modern Russians cluster west of balts though geographically they are farther to the east of them?

From my understand baltic tribes were far more wide spread during antiquity covering large areas of Poland etc. They may have very well been just pure balts who spoke a baltic language while slavs were still growing as a population in Pripyat area.

Bulk of (not all but many) Krakauer Berg samples are rather northern and Baltic shifted. Belarusian-Lithuanian cline irrc. I'm also pretty sure early medieval western Ukraine was not genetically like modern western Ukrainians excluding Volynia.

Btw, here are results of two Great Moravian Slavs from late medieval.

Distance to: NE_Euro:Moravia_POH28
0.03697758 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03838355 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04026342 Belarusian
0.04048938 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04129101 Lithuanian_VA
0.04220974 Lithuanian_RA
0.04285783 Russian_Smolensk
0.04314206 Lithuanian_PA
0.04364380 Russian_Pskov
0.04365806 Latvian
0.04497713 Estonian
0.04635229 Russian_Kaluga
0.04739289 Polish_Kashubian
0.04819271 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04856789 Russian_Voronez
0.04908976 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04959995 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04997611 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.05091211 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05175280 Russian_Kursk
0.05201166 Polish
0.05207170 Russian_Belgorod
0.05212985 Russian_Orel
0.05415031 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05539713 Russian_Yaroslavl


Distance to: NE_Euro:Moravia_POH13
0.02959238 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03078994 Lithuanian_VA
0.03210870 Lithuanian_RA
0.03262025 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03324002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03340955 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03424146 Belarusian
0.03594568 Russian_Pskov
0.03619425 Latvian
0.03635970 Russian_Smolensk
0.04172728 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04173181 Russian_Kaluga
0.04226147 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04233442 Russian_Voronez
0.04236367 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04297778 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04401853 Estonian
0.04413051 Russian_Orel
0.04484457 Polish_Kashubian
0.04610116 Russian_Kursk
0.04629550 Polish
0.04641076 Russian_Belgorod
0.04758354 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04772193 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04843990 Russian_Tver

closer to Latvians than Ukrainians. Pohansko is way south than Slavic homeland so if Slavs living there retained such genetic profile original Slavs must have been huelva northern to begin with.

[Jana]

and this is his haplo:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP578/ it's not too rare, but it's mostly limited to Russia, not pan-Slavic.

I don't think this is a Slav. He is probably an early Galindian or from a related tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galind...ern_Galindians

yeah, that sample is odd. Other one is way better candidate for a Slav. I wouldn't be modeling with more than 50% of it if it wasn't. do you know it's hg?
are there hgs released for all antique balkan samples from that paper?

[rothaer]

and this is his haplo:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP578/ it's not too rare, but it's mostly limited to Russia, not pan-Slavic.

I don't think this is a Slav. He is probably an early Galindian or from a related tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galind...ern_Galindians

I once heard there is noted the existence of the first name Galindo among Visigoths in Spain, which may indicate that the Goths had some contacts to Galindians in the past or even pulled some with them in the migration period. As for SRB_Viminacium_R6759___AD_150 to me the amber road seems a plausible candidate for the movement of such folks in minor numbers.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Btw, here are results of two Great Moravian Slavs from late medieval.

If memory serves me correctly these are very low coverage samples.

[Jana]

If memory serves me correctly these are very low coverage samples.

do you think that impacted their plotting? Btw, which samples you suggest to use for unmixed Slavs?