Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews

[SouthDutch7991]

If we compare the average of individuals who lived in Italy during the Roman Imperial period and Italian Jews, the latter have less EEF, more Middle Eastern and North African ancestry. I personally believe that there is a separate ethnogenesis.

Could the answer simply be an Italian to jewish conversion, coupled with a small admixture influx of near eastern jews?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

You didn't address the part where I pointed out that Ukrainian Mesolithic is not purely EHG.

It is, if by EHG we mean an intermediate population between WHG (R15) and ANE (AG3). RUS_Karelia_HG is too skewed toward ANE in this respect, but regardless of what we mean by EHG, the models I posted seem to have a better fit.

PCA with WHG/ANE-rich populations

rothaer's 1.20% Siberian in K13 is indeed an oddity, but it's obviously EHG admixture being misread.

Yes, but this may apply on an individual basis, not on average. Tver-Yaroslavl and Ryazan still score more Siberian than virtually all EHGs, indicating that a legacy from those pre-Slavic Finno-Ugric populations, albeit minimal, is there.

[Russki]

It is, if by EHG we mean an intermediate population between WHG (R15) and ANE (AG3).

Nope, we don't mean that EHG is an even 50/50 between WHG and ANE.

EHG is mostly ANE.

but regardless of what we mean by EHG, the models I posted seem to have a better fit.

Try both Ukrainian HG and Karelian HG and get an even better fit.

Yes, but this may apply on an individual basis, not on average. Tver-Yaroslavl and Ryazan still score more Siberian than virtually all EHGs

EHG score 15% Amerindian instead.

Amerindian and Siberian are easily interchangeable components in Eurogenes K13 form, with the only difference that Amerindian contains some West Eurasian admixture from the ANE itself.

15% Amerindian equals abt 12% Siberian, approximately.

legacy from those pre-Slavic Finno-Ugric populations, albeit minimal, is there.

Yes, and I always compare Russians with the existing Finnic populations.





I can also try with various EHG samples instead of ANE.

Those EHG samples keep coming out, the latest being Yu et al. 2023.

[SouthDutch7991]

I don't remember seeing the coordinates posted in the thread. Sorry if someone already posted them.

They are grouped into 3 different clusters.

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DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863,0.093335,0.132019,-0.020742,-0.064277,0.011079,-0.016455,-0.00423,-0.001846,0.01268,0.024602,0.007632,-0.003447,0.005203,-0.004542,-0.007465,-0.003713,-0.003129,-0.002914,-0.004902,-0.005378,-0.006239,-0.014838,-0.003574,-0.001687,-0.006586
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DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865,0.092197,0.142174,-0.014331,-0.059755,0.020619,-0.026774,-0.00611,-0.000923,0.01268,0.02041,0.00406,-0.000599,0.00446,0.003441,0.002036,-0.007027,-0.011474,0.004307,0.000126,-0.012506,-0.002745,-0.003957,0.008134,-0.005422,-0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870,0.094473,0.148267,-0.01697,-0.057494,0.008001,-0.024542,-0.00282,-0.000692,0.019839,0.008018,0.005034,0.004946,0.016204,-0.004679,-0.002036,0.007027,0.006389,-0.000887,-0.004902,-0.014882,-0.00025,0.002102,-0.008258,0.006989,0.003353
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737,0.08992,0.147252,-0.017725,-0.048773,0.008617,-0.028726,-0.00517,0.001385,0.013908,0.020228,0.00341,-0.001649,0.008176,0.007844,-0.012215,-0.0179,-0.017732,-0.002407,-0.000754,0.006878,-0.000873,-0.001113,0.005916,-0.002048,0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739,0.08992,0.144205,-0.018102,-0.063631,0.01508,-0.03012,0.00235,-0.006923,0.007567,0.01713,0.001624,0.001349,0.00996,-0.001927,-0.002172,-0.00305,-0.008214,0.000887,-0.01169,0.001251,0.000998,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.008194,-0.000838
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741,0.101303,0.145221,-0.017348,-0.053941,0.011387,-0.020638,0.00752,0.020999,0.033951,0.021504,0.003897,0.007194,0.005203,-0.00289,-0.007193,0.001458,0.014081,0.002154,-0.005908,0.003377,-0.009733,0.005812,-0.002465,0.025305,-0.009221
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851,0.097888,0.141159,-0.015839,-0.056848,0.011079,-0.01255,-0.00235,-0.009923,0.001841,0.016037,0.013153,0,0.006838,0.003716,-0.005429,-0.000265,-0.013299,-0.006588,-0.004525,-0.002001,-0.004617,-0.004328,-0.003204,-0.004458,0.002275
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852,0.103579,0.148267,-0.016593,-0.062662,0.005232,-0.022032,-0.001175,-0.018461,0.010431,0.022597,-0.001624,0.003747,0.001784,0.001789,-0.008686,0.002121,0.002477,0.004054,-0.009679,-0.004752,-0.00262,-0.018548,0.006779,0.012652,0.007185
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903,0.103579,0.146236,-0.021496,-0.051034,0.004001,-0.015897,0.000235,-0.003692,0.005318,0.024966,0.002111,-0.009292,-0.000595,-0.002752,-0.010179,0.000398,-0.002217,0.003674,-0.002388,0.002876,-0.00549,-0.00371,0.002711,0.000843,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13862,0.110408,0.122879,0.00264,-0.010982,0.010771,-0.005578,0.00235,0.002769,0.00859,0.009294,0.00682,-0.003147,-0.003419,0.010046,-0.011943,-0.008486,-0.004955,0.00038,-0.00088,-0.006003,-0.007986,-0.000866,0.008751,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13866,0.106994,0.118817,0.006034,-0.014212,0.016311,-0.010319,-0.00282,0.004615,0.001636,0.014943,-0.006333,-0.000899,0.003717,0.00523,-0.012758,-0.003713,0.008996,0.003927,-0.003142,0.003877,-0.007362,-0.001607,0.001109,0.006386,-0.002754
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13868,0.105855,0.127957,0.012822,-0.018088,0.024312,-0.002231,-0.00188,0.000231,0.01268,0.007289,0.002111,0.007194,0.005649,0.010184,-0.001357,-0.004375,0.009388,-0.000507,-0.004022,0.008254,-0.001497,-0.004328,0.0053,-0.003856,0.000599
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14738,0.112685,0.126941,0.012822,-0.013889,0.01508,-0.002789,-0.00188,0.002077,0.001227,0.008201,-0.006333,-0.002847,0.006541,0.007294,-0.00475,0.001061,0.006128,-0.000127,0.000126,-0.004252,0.002121,0.004081,0.006779,0.004217,-0.005987
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DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14850,0.103579,0.140143,0.013199,-0.017119,0.01908,-0.006136,-0.000235,0.011307,0.005113,0.004556,0.000974,-0.002098,-0.000743,0.007156,-0.004886,-0.012198,-0.008996,-0.003167,0.005782,-0.010005,-0.000749,-0.001484,0.012078,0.005543,0.002634
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14904,0.106994,0.116786,0.007165,-0.018411,0.023389,-0.008367,0.004935,0.010384,0.00225,0.016583,-0.004709,0.009591,0.001933,0.008395,0.000814,-0.008486,-0.022296,-0.002914,-0.001383,0,0.002246,-0.008903,0.002958,0.001687,0.003233
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867,0.093335,0.13405,-0.002263,-0.049096,0.014772,-0.018686,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.011249,0.016948,0.008119,-0.001649,0.006987,0.000275,-0.003936,0.001193,0.001565,-0.000887,-0.004777,0.001626,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.007641,0.007953,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736,0.092197,0.139128,0.001131,-0.047804,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00141,0.001846,0.00859,0.018041,0.005684,0.002398,0.010555,-0.000138,0.006922,0.008884,0.01708,0.004181,0,-0.004252,-0.000499,0.004451,-0.00037,-0.002048,-0.008263
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897,0.09675,0.142174,-0.003017,-0.039406,0.005232,-0.012271,0.013396,0.006231,0.005113,0.013121,0.000812,-0.001049,0.000595,0.012937,-0.001629,0.001061,-0.021774,0.003294,0.005279,-0.014007,0.001373,-0.011871,0.0053,-0.006025,-0.006347

Here's how they plot in G25 alongside other Jews. I have to wonder if what we're seeing with european/nafri jews is a proper cline.