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Thread: Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russki View Post
    Can we look at the models?

    I remember you argued that EHG should be used instead of Yamnaya for modeling (because much of EHG entered Europe directly without Yamnaya) and in this modeling Russians get 0% East Asian contribution.

    In (some) Russian there is clearly a bit of extra-ANE East Asian from earlier Finno-Ugric populations.

    Code:
    Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
    Distance: 0.0573% / 0.05725940
    36.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    30.6	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    23.1	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    7.8	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    1.7	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    
    Target: Russian_Tver
    Distance: 0.0574% / 0.05741332
    38.2	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    36.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    13.9	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    9.6	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    0.9	CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
    0.8	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    0.4	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    
    Target: Russian_Ryazan
    Distance: 0.0559% / 0.05588506
    38.1	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    30.5	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    19.2	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    8.7	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    2.5	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    0.8	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    0.2	CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
    In Eurogenes K13, ANE would score Amerindian but not Siberian which Russians do.


  2. #12
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Btw, there is some East Asia in the most mixed group of Erfurt Jews, but it will probably have been brought by Turkic-speaking peoples, not Russians as the paper claims.

    Code:
    Target: DEU_MA_Erfurt1
    Distance: 0.0231% / 0.02306210
    31.7	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    18.0	Levant_PPNC:I1699__BC_6750__Cov_25.23%
    17.6	Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
    14.5	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    9.9	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    8.2	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    0.1	RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino__BC_9371__Cov_84.56%
    
    Target: DEU_MA_Erfurt2
    Distance: 0.0261% / 0.02613405
    28.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    19.3	Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
    14.7	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    13.7	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    12.1	Levant_PPNC:I1699__BC_6750__Cov_25.23%
    7.9	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    3.5	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001__BC_13461__Cov_73.74%
    0.6	CHN_Amur_River_9200BP:NE45__BC_7291__Cov_9.49%
    
    Target: DEU_MA_Erfurt3
    Distance: 0.0284% / 0.02844173
    39.3	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    20.7	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    17.6	Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
    10.2	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    10.1	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    1.9	CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
    0.1	MAR_Taforalt:TAF010__BC_12699__Cov_64.50%
    0.1	JPN_Jomon:JpKa6904__BC_6870__Cov_99.62%

  3. #13
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    True, especially as this topic is at a high risk of being influenced by religiously fed narratives and thus getting biased. Since quite a while I'm pointing out that modelling AJ with Southern Italian instead of Northern Italian is much more plausible historically and you see in this pic (from that paper) what then happens to the Middle Eastern (ME)/Lebanese proportion:



    Essentially always I got upset and rejecting reactions by Jews on this.
    The Mediterranean in Roman times was a melting pot; it is difficult to distinguish one thing from another. It is also not a given that the population the Jews mixed with as soon as they arrived in Italy was similar to today's southern Italians. They analyzed 1 (n=1) Pompeian and plotted well south of modern southern Italy.


  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Russians have nothing to do with the Erfurt Jews. There were just (modern) Russians used in that modelling.

    Jews coming from Silesia and Bohemia to Erfurt is no genetic conclusion but a historical record.

    Btw, Davidski criticized that Russians were used (instead of Slovaks or Poles) as they do hide existent minor East Asian contributions, which may in fact be indicative of some Khazars.
    Yeah. Maybe, I'm not sure of the Khazar connection. I was interested in why they used Russians in modelling Ashkenazim. I didn't say it is wrong. You know that you can use many combinations in modelling one population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    In (some) Russian there is clearly a bit of extra-ANE East Asian from earlier Finno-Ugric populations.

    Code:
    Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
    Distance: 0.0573% / 0.05725940
    36.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    30.6	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    23.1	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    7.8	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    1.7	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    
    Target: Russian_Tver
    Distance: 0.0574% / 0.05741332
    38.2	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    36.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    13.9	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    9.6	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    0.9	CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
    0.8	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    0.4	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    
    Target: Russian_Ryazan
    Distance: 0.0559% / 0.05588506
    38.1	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    30.5	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    19.2	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    8.7	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    2.5	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    0.8	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    0.2	CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%

    Ukrainian Mesolithic can be regarded as EHG but is clearly WHG-shifted compared to Karelia HG.

    So just playing around with the models.








    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    In Eurogenes K13, ANE would score Amerindian but not Siberian which Russians do.


    It also scores 1,54% Oceanian which means K13 struggles to decipher admixture of ancient populations.

    rothaer's Eurogenes K13 gives him 1,20% Siberian but on G25 he doesn't get any.

    In his context it can't come from anything other than EHG.



    UPD: I quickly found a Norwegian Hunter-Gatherer (not even a predominantly EHG population) which would score some Siberian.


    Last edited by Russki; 01-23-2023 at 09:58 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    True, especially as this topic is at a high risk of being influenced by religiously fed narratives and thus getting biased. Since quite a while I'm pointing out that modelling AJ with Southern Italian instead of Northern Italian is much more plausible historically and you see in this pic (from that paper) what then happens to the Middle Eastern (ME)/Lebanese proportion:



    Essentially always I got upset and rejecting reactions by Jews on this.
    Well it's funny because I once asked the question; are AJ's just more or less Southern Italian converts? I think the real answer will be hard to find until we can find samples in the process of admixture, or in the case of the alternate theory, southern italian jews that clearly show recent southern italian ancestry and no recent west asian ancestry that differs from typical imperial southern italians.
    Target: SouthDutch7991
    Distance: 0.0130% / 0.01302265
    29.6 English
    22.3 English_Cornwall
    19.8 German_Erlangen
    16.2 Swiss_German
    11.1 Irish
    1.0 Yoruba

  7. #17
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthDutch7991 View Post
    Well it's funny because I once asked the question; are AJ's just more or less Southern Italian converts? I think the real answer will be hard to find until we can find samples in the process of admixture, or in the case of the alternate theory, southern italian jews that clearly show recent southern italian ancestry and no recent west asian ancestry that differs from typical imperial southern italians.
    If we compare the average of individuals who lived in Italy during the Roman Imperial period and Italian Jews, the latter have less EEF, more Middle Eastern and North African ancestry. I personally believe that there is a separate ethnogenesis.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russki View Post
    Ukrainian Mesolithic can be regarded as EHG but is clearly WHG-shifted compared to Karelia HG.

    So just playing around with the models.





    It also scores 1,54% Oceanian which means K13 struggles to decipher admixture of ancient populations.

    rothaer's Eurogenes K13 gives him 1,20% Siberian but on G25 he doesn't get any.

    In his context it can't come from anything other than EHG.

    UPD: I quickly found a Norwegian Hunter-Gatherer (not even a predominantly EHG population) which would score some Siberian.

    Yes, individually there may be oddities, I myself on the raw data converted to 23andMe V3 get 1% East_Asian. What makes the difference, however, is how a population comes out on average.

    Code:
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_188-373
    Distance: 0.0484% / 0.04838905
    40.8	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    18.9	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    16.0	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    12.7	RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
    8.9	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    2.2	TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432__BC_8750__Cov_13.58%
    0.5	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_841-936
    Distance: 0.0538% / 0.05384962
    33.3	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    26.1	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    23.2	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    7.1	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    3.8	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    3.3	RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
    2.3	Levant_PPNB:I1707__BC_7619__Cov_12.73%
    0.9	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1012-1429
    Distance: 0.0510% / 0.05095259
    34.6	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    33.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    16.1	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    9.1	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    2.9	Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
    1.9	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    1.3	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    0.3	CHN_Amur_River_11000BP:NE-8__BC_9313__Cov_30.14%
    
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1634-1787
    Distance: 0.0547% / 0.05472398
    50.6	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    37.1	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    8.8	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    1.8	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    1.7	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Yes, individually there may be oddities, I myself on the raw data converted to 23andMe V3 get 1% East_Asian. What makes the difference, however, is how a population comes out on average.

    Code:
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_188-373
    Distance: 0.0484% / 0.04838905
    40.8	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    18.9	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    16.0	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    12.7	RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
    8.9	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    2.2	TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432__BC_8750__Cov_13.58%
    0.5	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_841-936
    Distance: 0.0538% / 0.05384962
    33.3	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    26.1	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    23.2	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    7.1	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    3.8	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    3.3	RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
    2.3	Levant_PPNB:I1707__BC_7619__Cov_12.73%
    0.9	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1012-1429
    Distance: 0.0510% / 0.05095259
    34.6	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    33.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    16.1	UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
    9.1	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    2.9	Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
    1.9	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    1.3	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
    0.3	CHN_Amur_River_11000BP:NE-8__BC_9313__Cov_30.14%
    
    Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1634-1787
    Distance: 0.0547% / 0.05472398
    50.6	UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
    37.1	TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
    8.8	GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
    1.8	CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
    1.7	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

    You didn't address the part where I pointed out that Ukrainian Mesolithic is not purely EHG.





    rothaer's 1.20% Siberian in K13 is indeed an oddity, but it's obviously EHG admixture being misread.

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    I don't remember seeing the coordinates posted in the thread. Sorry if someone already posted them.

    They are grouped into 3 different clusters.

    Code:
    DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861,0.103579,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.051357,0.006463,-0.017012,0.008695,-0.000462,0.006954,0.017677,0.011042,-0.006894,0.002379,-0.013762,-0.005836,0.009414,0.008345,-0.001014,-0.005154,0.002251,-0.005989,0.004451,0.001602,-0.00253,0.002515
    DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863,0.093335,0.132019,-0.020742,-0.064277,0.011079,-0.016455,-0.00423,-0.001846,0.01268,0.024602,0.007632,-0.003447,0.005203,-0.004542,-0.007465,-0.003713,-0.003129,-0.002914,-0.004902,-0.005378,-0.006239,-0.014838,-0.003574,-0.001687,-0.006586
    DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864,0.094473,0.151314,-0.019233,-0.052972,0.010463,-0.014502,-0.00188,-0.001615,0.018612,0.024784,0.005684,-3e-04,0.003271,0.003853,0.002714,0.001193,-0.01369,0.003421,0.003645,-0.012881,0.00262,0.002597,-0.002711,0.006266,-0.003113
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