"Jugoslavic" Muslim historian says "He is a Muslim but he is a Serb"

[Mortimer]

https://www.tiktok.com/@kameniemotiv...97335972728070

[Atlantic Reptilian]

I think he is right

Indeed, many times religion is considered the most important aspect for determining ethnicity (in the Balkans); "if you are Orthodox you are Serb, if you are Catholic you are Croat" etc., but it's actually not true because despite your religion your ethnicity remains the same.

And it makes a lot of sense that there are Serb Muslims, and that there a lot of Slav Muslims who are not Bosniaks, but maybe it, at some point, it became beneficial to be part of a larger group, for political reasons, so people started calling themselves Bosniaks.

If I take myself as an example, being raised in a secular environment doesn't make me any less Bosniak. And this secularism was embraced by my family.

[Dušan]

I think he is right

Indeed, many times religion is considered the most important aspect for determining ethnicity (in the Balkans); "if you are Orthodox you are Serb, if you are Catholic you are Croat" etc., but it's actually not true because despite your religion your ethnicity remains the same.

It is a legacy of the Ottoman Empire, because belonging to a certain religion determined the social position of a certain group in the whole society.

Based on religion, new communities were formed that did not mix with each other for centuries.

Later, Austria-Hungary tried to create a single nation in Bosnia, but did not find the consent of any of the three nations. In Yugoslavia, there was also a possibility for Muslims to return to their Serbian origin, but that did not happen either.

Simply, Christians and Muslims cannot have such a degree of solidarity that they accept each other in one nation.

And in neighboring Bulgaria, the Islamicized Bulgarians formed a special Pomak nationality. The Islamized Greeks ended up in Turkey in population exchange with Pontic Greeks.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

It is a legacy of the Ottoman Empire, because belonging to a certain religion determined the social position of a certain group in the whole society.

Based on religion, new communities were formed that did not mix with each other for centuries.

Later, Austria-Hungary tried to create a single nation in Bosnia, but did not find the consent of any of the three nations. In Yugoslavia, there was also a possibility for Muslims to return to their Serbian origin, but that did not happen either.

Simply, Christians and Muslims cannot have such a degree of solidarity that they accept each other in one nation.

And in neighboring Bulgaria, the Islamicized Bulgarians formed a special Pomak nationality. The Islamized Greeks ended up in Turkey in population exchange with Pontic Greeks.

I agree with you. And despite my ancestors being "Muslims" they wanted the Ottoman empire to go away. They didn't leave Bosnia for Turkey when the Austro-Hungarians arrived, but instead were appreciated the change and even served as statesmen.

As for Serbs uniting with each other, regardless of faith, I can understand how it's a difficult subject considering all the polarization. There is probably more polarization among Serbs of different faiths than Bosniaks and Serbs. Lots of the history you are thinking of has actually more to do with what the Ottomans did rather than the Bosniaks, right?

As your can see, even Bosnian Muslim Ayans (Nobles and aristocrats) fought against the Ottoman empire and wanted to be free, but unfortunately they lost. They were supposed to be "non-rebellious" elite in the Ottoman empire, since otherwise they would perhaps threaten the empire, but turns out they actually didn't want the Empire to be there after all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia...%E2%80%931832)

I wouldn't be surprised if these ayans were just the same elite that ruled during the Bosnian Kingdom, but in order to "go under the radar" they became ayans in the Ottoman empire, but as you can see they really weren't in support of it? Or what do you think?

[Dušan]

I agree with you. And despite my ancestors being "Muslims" they wanted the Ottoman empire to go away. They didn't leave Bosnia for Turkey when the Austro-Hungarians arrived, but instead were appreciated the change and even served as statesmen.

As for Serbs uniting with each other, regardless of faith, I can understand how it's a difficult subject considering all the polarization. There is probably more polarization among Serbs of different faiths than Bosniaks and Serbs. Lots of the history you are thinking of has actually more to do with what the Ottomans did rather than the Bosniaks, right?

As your can see, even Bosnian Muslim Ayans (Nobles and aristocrats) fought against the Ottoman empire and wanted to be free, but unfortunately they lost. They were supposed to be "non-rebellious" elite in the Ottoman empire, since otherwise they would perhaps threaten the empire, but turns out they actually didn't want the Empire to be there after all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia...%E2%80%931832)

I wouldn't be surprised if these ayans were just the same elite that ruled during the Bosnian Kingdom, but in order to "go under the radar" they became ayans in the Ottoman empire, but as you can see they really weren't in support of it? Or what do you think?

Most of Bosnian Muslims identified themselves with Ottoman empire. Some of them even left for Turkey when Austria-Hungary took Bosnia in 1878.

As it is said, Austria-Hungary tried to create "Bosnian nation", with Muslims as the base, but they rejected not wanting to have any bussiness with Bosnian Serbs and Croats, seeing Christians as lower class. Also Bosnian Serbs and Croats rejected that idea of unifying with Muslims.

Austria-Hungary was in favour of Muslims, preserving Ottoman feudal system in which land ownership in Bosnia was 90% by Muslims, although they constituted only 30% of population.
In agrarian reform after 1918 in Yugoslavia, Bosnian Serbs and Croats got their land property.

[Alenka]

I agree with you. And despite my ancestors being "Muslims" they wanted the Ottoman empire to go away. They didn't leave Bosnia for Turkey when the Austro-Hungarians arrived, but instead were appreciated the change and even served as statesmen.

As for Serbs uniting with each other, regardless of faith, I can understand how it's a difficult subject considering all the polarization. There is probably more polarization among Serbs of different faiths than Bosniaks and Serbs. Lots of the history you are thinking of has actually more to do with what the Ottomans did rather than the Bosniaks, right?

As your can see, even Bosnian Muslim Ayans (Nobles and aristocrats) fought against the Ottoman empire and wanted to be free, but unfortunately they lost. They were supposed to be "non-rebellious" elite in the Ottoman empire, since otherwise they would perhaps threaten the empire, but turns out they actually didn't want the Empire to be there after all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia...%E2%80%931832)

I wouldn't be surprised if these ayans were just the same elite that ruled during the Bosnian Kingdom, but in order to "go under the radar" they became ayans in the Ottoman empire, but as you can see they really weren't in support of it? Or what do you think?

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Most of Bosnian Muslims identified themselves with Ottoman empire. Some of them even left for Turkey when Austria-Hungary took Bosnia in 1878.

Sure, but in the eyes of those who stayed, they didn't consider going with the Ottoman empire to be anything positive. I doubt most of them identified with O. empire, it was more something you couldn't do much about.

As it is said, Austria-Hungary tried to create "Bosnian nation", with Muslims as the base, but they rejected not wanting to have any bussiness with Bosnian Serbs and Croats, seeing Christians as lower class. Also Bosnian Serbs and Croats rejected that idea of unifying with Muslims.

It could be true that they rejected having business with other ethnicities in areas that were pred. Bosniak, since the non-Bosniak populations there were below 5%, but in the big cities I doubt they really cared about that, but more about selling to more people.

Austria-Hungary was in favour of Muslims, preserving Ottoman feudal system in which land ownership in Bosnia was 90% by Muslims, although they constituted only 30% of population.

What regions are you thinking of specifically?

After agrarian reform after 1918 in Yugoslavia, Bosnian Serbs and Croats got their land property.

Interesting. Can you tell me more about that last part? What areas of BiH was that?

[Atlantic Reptilian]

...

Yes, because Bosniaks are a very tiny part of the Balkans, so I don't see why they would want to bother anyone or care, really.

[Dušan]

Sure, but in the eyes of those who stayed, they didn't consider going with the Ottoman empire to be anything positive. I doubt most of them identified with O. empire, it was more something you couldn't do much about.

In this old Austro-Hungarian map of Bosnia, there are several villages next to each other, populated either by Muslims either by Serbs.

Those villages populated by Bosnian Muslims had name "Turkish", those populated with Bosnian Serbs had name "Serbian"



Janjari Srpski - Janjari Turski
Trnova Srpska - Trnova Turska
Šepak Srpski - Šepak Turski

So yes, there existed Turkish/Ottoman identity in Bosnian Muslims.

It could be true that they rejected having business with other ethnicities in areas that were pred. Bosniak, since the non-Bosniak populations there were below 5%, but in the big cities I doubt they really cared about that, but more about selling to more people.
What regions are you thinking of specifically?

In entire Bosnia.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1910_p...nd_Herzegovina

Is it normal that community of 32% have over 90% of land ownership???

That remained from Ottomans, and Austria-Hungary did nothing about that.

Interesting. Can you tell me more about that last part? What areas of BiH was that?

In entire Bosnia.
Christians got right to have land property and didnt be second class citizens anymore.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

In this old Austro-Hungarian map of Bosnia, there are several villages next to each other, populated either by Muslims either by Serbs.

Those villages populated by Bosnian Muslims had name "Turkish", those populated with Bosnian Serbs had name "Serbian"



Janjari Srpski - Janjari Turski
Trnova Srpska - Trnova Turska
Šepak Srpski - Šepak Turski

So yes, there existed Turkish/Ottoman identity in Bosnian Muslims.

But it could just be a way of saying you are not Serb? Anyhow, I don't hear people calling themselves Turks nowadays. That would be reserved to some people with strange ideas.

For instance, why do Bosniaks not use names such as Vladimir or Slobodan? Because they are Serb names, so it would be confusing. There are perhaps some outliers but that's about it. But they do still retain a slavicized form of their names.

In entire Bosnia.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1910_p...nd_Herzegovina

Is it normal that community of 32% have over 90% of land ownership???

That remained from Ottomans, and Austria-Hungary did nothing about that.



In entire Bosnia.
Christians got right to have land property and didnt be second class citizens anymore.

Despite, yes, 30% owning 90% of the land seems a bit extreme, I don't really see how it should be considered abnormal by just looking at the statistics of the entire nation. If, say, one population would be owning 90 of the land where another population lives, yes, that would be a bit odd. So I would like you to be a bit more specific, if you can give an example of areas where there were majority i.e. Serbs living on Bosniak-owned lands? And where did you get that 90% from? Are you thinking of some kind of state entity owning the land?