Croatia or Transylvania: Which is more culturally "Balkan"?

[Jankec]

I will later see this video. I share the opinion about mostly Albanian origin of Aromanians (although I am not an expert), but I thought they were prior latinized.

Aromanian "epicentre" was in and around Moskopole in southern Albania.

Albanians are probably pre-Romanian inhabitants of Balkan, so their bourgeoise and some pieces of rural population could be latinized in Roman or early Byzantine period.

[oszkar07]

Large territories of Hungary had non-Hungarian majority, including Transylvania. We "conquered" these parts because they had Romanian majority and the majority was also in favour, no antagonism there

Romanian population in Transylvania was increasing over time.

Many of the major towns/cities had a higher Hungarian population and of course including the Szekelyfold.Other major towns had majority German population often followed by Hungarian.
Also many of these Town names were Hungarian origin and the towns were founded by Hungary in
13th century or earlier.


Some example's ...

Arad
According to the 1880 census, whilst still in the now defunct Austro-Hungarian Empire, of the 35,556 inhabitants, 19,896 were Hungarians (56%), 6,439 Romanians (18.1%), 5,448 Germans (15.3%), 1,690 Serbs (4.8%) and 2,083 (5.9%) of other ethnicities. In 1910, from 63,166 inhabitants, 46,085 were Hungarian (72.95%), 10,279 Romanian (16.27%), 4,365 German (6.91%), 1,816 Serbian (2.87%), 277 Slovak (0.43%) and 133 Czech (0.21%).

According to the 2011 census, the municipality of Arad was home to 159,704 inhabitants. The ethnic split of the city was as follows: 126,075 Romanians (85.19%); 15,695 Hungarians (10.06%); 2,535 Romani (1.71%); 1,256 Germans (0.84%); and 2,116 of other nationalities (1.22%).

Oradea/Nagyvárad
Year Population %± Romanian Hungarian
1787 9,790 — n/a n/a
1830 19,091 95% n/a n/a
1857 22,443 17.5% n/a n/a
1880 31,324 39.5% 6.5% 86.8%
1900 47,018 50.1% n/a n/a
1910 64,169 36.4% 5.6% 91%
1930 82,687 28.8% 27.1% 51.5%
1948 82,282 −0.4% 32.8% 63.8%
1956 98,950 20.2% 35.9% 59%
1966 122,534 23.8% 46% 51.3%
1977 170,531 39.1% 53.9% 44%
1992 222,741 30.6% 64.7% 33.3%
2002 206,614 −7.2% 70.3% 27.5%
2011 196,367 −4.9% 73.1% 24.9%

The above census shows from 1880 to 1966 Oradea had a majority Hungarian population.

Timisoara/Temesvar

Timișoara has stood out since ancient times as an ethnically diverse city. In 1910, the largest community was represented by Germans, followed by Hungarians, Romanians, Jews, Serbs and many other smaller communities, such as Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Romas, Bulgarians, Poles, etc.[70] The figures and percentage ratios are much changed today, but the multiethnic aspect of the city persists. Nowadays, 85% of the inhabitants are Romanians.

Cluj Napoca / Kolozsvár
Historical population of Cluj-Napoca
Year Population %± Romanians Hungarians

1850 19,612 40% 21.0% 62.8%
1880 32,831 67.4% 17.1% 72.1%
1890 37,184 13.2% 15.2% 79.1%
1900 50,908 36.9% 14.1% 81.1%
1910 62,733 23.2% 14.2% 81.6%
1920 85,509 36.3% 34.7% 49.3%
1930 100,844 17.9% 34.6% 47.3%
1941 114,984 14% 9.8% 85.7%
1948 117,915 2.5% 40% 57%
1956 154,723 31.2% 47.8% 47.9%
1966 185,663 20% 56.5% 41.4%
1977 262,858 41.5% 65.8% 32.8%
1992 328,602 25% 76.6% 22.7%
2002 317,953 −3.2% 79.4% 19.0%
2011 324,576 2.1% 81.5% 16.4%

The above census shows that Cluj Napoca from 1880 to 1956 was majority Hungarian population.

And in present time ....

There are forty-one counties of Romania; Hungarians form a large majority of the population in the counties of Harghita (85.21%) and Covasna (73.74%), and a large percentage in Mureș (38.09%), Satu Mare (34.65%), Bihor (25.27%), Sălaj (23.35%), and Cluj (15.93%) counties.

My Grandfather was born in Balc/Balyok-Romania in the 1920's. In 1910 Balyok was nearly 100% Hungarian town.

[Varda]

I will later see this video. I share the opinion about mostly Albanian origin of Aromanians (although I am not an expert), but I thought they were prior latinized.

Aromanian "epicentre" was in and around Moskopole in southern Albania.

Albanians are probably pre-Romanian inhabitants of Balkan, so their bourgeoise and some pieces of rural population could be latinized in Roman or early Byzantine period.

Aleksandar Mitić is autochthonist. For him Slavs = Serbs, Albanians came from Sicily with George Maniakes in 1042, Serbs/Slavs are actually Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians, Dacians etc. Aside that, theory about Aromanians as extra latinized Albanians in the late middle age is interesting (Albanian language has up to 40% words of Latin origin). He mentioned that one Venetian writer in 1325. wrote that God let the Albanians into Thessaly like a plague, they arrived in large number and captured and looted everything the Catalans and Greeks had held before them. Catalans and Greeks tried to stop them, but failed. That Albanians were permanently inhabited in Thessaly is shown by negotiations of emperor Andronikos III Palailogos (ruled from 1328 to 1341) with Albanian tribes Malakasi, Buyi and Masariti. One village in the western mountain part of Thessaly has a name Malakasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malakasi), and today's population of village and area is Aromanian.

[oszkar07]

bumped

[Daco Celtic]

bumped

I told my kid she is going to Babeș-Bolyai University in Cluj or bust.

[Mingle]

Serbian historian from the video presented a hypothesis that Aromanians are Albanians who are extra latinized in Epirus and Thessaly in 13th and 14th century by Latin speaking noblemen from the west (Italian, Catalan, French) who were present there during the existence of Latin Empire and even quite later after the restoration of Byzantine

Vlachs are first mentioned in the Balkans in the 10th-11th century, not the 13th-14th. They speak a distinct eastern branch of Romance, so them being Latinized by nobles makes no sense. If Eastern Romance is derived from a mix of West Romance dialects (Italian, Catalan, French), then linguists would've noticed it and connected the etymology of most basic East Romance words to West Romance words (like they do with actual French loans in Romanian), but they don't.

[Mingle]

I will later see this video. I share the opinion about mostly Albanian origin of Aromanians (although I am not an expert), but I thought they were prior latinized.

Aromanian "epicentre" was in and around Moskopole in southern Albania.

The earliest references to Vlachs are in Greece, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Not in Albania.

Moscopole only became an important city in the 17th-18th century. Aromanians there are likely merchants that migrated from elsewhere and built up the city rather than being some ancient inhabitants. And Moscopole itself would've been multicultural with people from all over the Balkans as an important trade city.

[Jana]

Aromanians have rather different paternal (Y-DNA) lineages than Albanians do. I do not believe in their Albanian origins.

They could be immigrants from north (east Serbia/parts of Romania) who moved to southern Balkans like Greece during medieval as some sources say.

[Varda]

Vlachs are first mentioned in the Balkans in the 10th-11th century, not the 13th-14th. They speak a distinct eastern branch of Romance, so them being Latinized by nobles makes no sense. If Eastern Romance is derived from a mix of West Romance dialects (Italian, Catalan, French), then linguists would've noticed it and connected the etymology of most basic East Romance words to West Romance words (like they do with actual French loans in Romanian), but they don't.

Aleksandar Mitić say Vlachs mentioned in 11th century in Thessaly are not ancestors of present day Aromanians, but some other people. Because their two leaders had Slavic names. I think he is wrong and that Vlachs are Aromanians. Slavic names of their leaders is not so weird, since in Thessaly in the middle age there was Vlach-Slavic mixing. This guy AELarisa (https://forum.krstarica.com/members/aelarisa.410445/) on Serbian forum Krstarica on the thread about Vlachs wrote that in Thessaly in the middle age some Slavs are assimilated by Vlachs or vlachized. AELarisa is Thessalian Greek of Vlach origin who carry Slavic Y DNA (I2-Y3120).
Btw on the same thread even more active is Carlin15 (https://forum.krstarica.com/members/carlin15.388365/) who is Aromanian from N. Macedonia (with deeper roots from Epirus) living in Canada.

I agree for language. West Romance influence in Aromanian language would be visible if they are extra latinized by Catalan, Italian, French etc. noblemen in the 13th/14th century.

Aromanians have rather different paternal (Y-DNA) lineages than Albanians do. I do not believe in their Albanian origins.

Aromanians are by both Y DNA and autosomally closer to Albanians than to Aromanians.

They could be immigrants from north (east Serbia/parts of Romania) who moved to southern Balkans like Greece during medieval as some sources say.

Vlachs/Romanians in eastern Serbia are settlers from Oltenia and eastern Banat 300 years ago. Aromanians in historical Macedonia are recorded in 10th century.
Proto East Romance speaking homeland from where originated ancestors of Romanians, Aromanians and Megleno-Vlachs most likely is not in modern Romania neither in historical Macedonia, but in some third place. I believe it's present day southeastern Serbia and western Bulgaria or former Dacia Aureliana.

[Mingle]

...

...

Earliest reference to Vlachs in Serbia is from 1198 in the Chrysobull of Monk Simeon (Stefan Nemanja) to the Hilander Monastery:

And over there I planted two vineyards, as well as four beehives. One beehive in Trpeze [now Trpeza, near Prizren, Kosovo], the second in Dabšore, the third one in Goliševo, and the fourth in Parici. And each of these beehives has two men. And [I gave also] Bogača mountain [i.e., pasture land on the Bogdača mountain, about 11 miles to the northwest from Peć, in western Kosovo]. And from the Vlachs, the jurisdictions of Rad and Djuradj. And altogether there are 170 Vlachs. And I gave cattle as many as I could, and in Zeta, mares and 30 spuds (about 85 pounds] of salt.

And if some of the monastic men run away, or [some] Vlach [runs away] to the great zhupan, or to somebody else, they are to go back. And if one of the zhupan’s men comes to the monastic people, he is to go back. And all of the these I gave to the monastery on the Holy Mountain, not to have any demands from either my children, my grandsons, my cousins or anybody else. If somebody corrupts this, let God judge him and have the holy Mother of God and me, Simeon the sinner, on Judgment Day.

http://users.clas.ufl.edu/fcurta/nemanja.html

Based on the usage of Slavic names (Rad, Djuradj) by Vlachs in late 12th century, it seems that the Vlachs of Serbia were pretty Slavic influenced (as expected).

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His successor Stefan Nemanjić mentions 54 non-Serbian (Vlach & Albanian) names in the Žiča Charter shortly after in 1210:



Some of the Vlachs would've also had Slavic names, but Vlach names are specifically mentioned as well. But I can only see four names from the screenshot above since I can't find an online copy of the Žiča Charter. Let me know if you guys can.

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Here is a Serbo-Croatian secondary source about Vlachs that mentions them being distinguished by ethnicity (in case someone thinks they could've been talking about the social caste in early sources):

Međutim , u darovnic i kraljice Jelene , Urošev e žene , ok o 1280. godine , kojo m s e potvrđuj e darovnic a njezina šogor a Vladislava manastir u Vranini, i to s prijetnjom glob e od 500 perpera , Vlasi se zasebn o navode , ka o i Arbanasi, Latini i Srbi

U toj se darovnic i jasn o izražava etničk a individualnost Vlaha , je r se oni spominju u nabrajan u zajedno s drugim narodima : (...) ikto uleziu tezizabel ili Srblin ili Vlah ili Bugarin (...) i vsaki ktoprichodi na nj, ljubo Grk ili B jgarin ili Srblin, Latin, Arbanasin, Vlach..."

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/157940

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This link below also talks about the Serb and Vlach relationship in the Middle Ages (he cites the works of Romanian authors, so it's hard for me to find the primary sources for most of them):

https://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/eleme.../3901-4046.pdf



But basically, he says that 'Serb' and 'Vlach' were used almost synonymously and this must have been the result of a close symbiotic relationship between the two populations before Vlachs disappeared from Serbia.

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There's more later references on this Wiki page too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...Serbia#History