Croatia or Transylvania: Which is more culturally "Balkan"?

[oszkar07]

I told my kid she is going to Babeș-Bolyai University in Cluj or bust.

She would luv it ! Kolozsvár has always been a very beautiful város .

and here is a little song from forum member Blondie ...



"Soha nem szabad oda vendégként érkeznünk, ahol egykor otthon voltunk, adjátok vissza a hegyeimet..."
Wass Albert

[Blondie]

and here is a little song from forum member Blondie ...

Really? I dont remember

[Varda]

Earliest reference to Vlachs in Serbia is from 1198 in the Chrysobull of Monk Simeon (Stefan Nemanja) to the Hilander Monastery:



http://users.clas.ufl.edu/fcurta/nemanja.html

Based on the usage of Slavic names (Rad, Djuradj) by Vlachs in late 12th century, it seems that the Vlachs of Serbia were pretty Slavic influenced (as expected).

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His successor Stefan Nemanjić mentions 54 non-Serbian (Vlach & Albanian) names in the Žiča Charter shortly after in 1210:



Some of the Vlachs would've also had Slavic names, but Vlach names are specifically mentioned as well. But I can only see four names from the screenshot above since I can't find an online copy of the Žiča Charter. Let me know if you guys can.

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Here is a Serbo-Croatian secondary source about Vlachs that mentions them being distinguished by ethnicity (in case someone thinks they could've been talking about the social caste in early sources):





https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/157940

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This link below also talks about the Serb and Vlach relationship in the Middle Ages (he cites the works of Romanian authors, so it's hard for me to find the primary sources for most of them):

https://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/eleme.../3901-4046.pdf



But basically, he says that 'Serb' and 'Vlach' were used almost synonymously and this must have been the result of a close symbiotic relationship between the two populations before Vlachs disappeared from Serbia.

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There's more later references on this Wiki page too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...Serbia#History

Please don't with Malcolm, that subhuman is an Albanian lobbyist.

Vlach of Kosovo and Herzegovina in the high and late middle age were social class, not some Latin speaking element. They were vlachs, not Vlachs. They were Serbian speakers and Slavic - Paleobalkanic genetic mix similar as modern Serbs. Most of their names were Serbian Slavic folk names, more than calendar/biblical. Among Kosovo vlachs only few names pulling oh the Vlachs side like Aukar, Negul, Balin, Baldovin (last one is debatable, might be of western origin). Names of Kosovo vlachs from charter of Serbian king Milutin to monastery Banjska or 'St. Stephen Chrysobull' (1314-16) https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/...#post-37700002

Names (and patronymics) of the members of Herzegovinian vlach clan Mirilovići (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirilovići) mentioned from 1365. to 1469. Domination of Serbian Slavic folk names, and 0% of Balkan Romance (aka Vlachic) names. Btw Y DNA of Mirilovići is determined, and it's Slavic I2-PH3414 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH3414/

[Mingle]

Please don't with Malcolm, that subhuman is an Albanian lobbyist.

I wasn't quoting his opinion, the screenshot is part of the original Serbian text of the Žiča Charter, which I could only find posted by him. I couldn't find the original text of the charter online.

Vlach of Kosovo and Herzegovina in the high and late middle age were social class, not some Latin speaking element. They were vlachs, not Vlachs. They were Serbian speakers and Slavic - Paleobalkanic genetic mix similar as modern Serbs. Most of their names were Serbian Slavic folk names, more than calendar/biblical. Among Kosovo vlachs only few names pulling oh the Vlachs side like Aukar, Negul, Balin, Baldovin (last one is debatable, might be of western origin). Names of Kosovo vlachs from charter of Serbian king Milutin to monastery Banjska or 'St. Stephen Chrysobull' (1314-16) https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/...#post-37700002

So if there were a few Vlach names of Vlach origin like Aukar, Negul, etc, doesn't that mean they were Vlach rather than vlach? Do Serbs ever have such names like Aukar, Negul, etc?

Do you think the 1198 source from Hilander refers to vlachs instead of Vlachs too?

When do you think Vlachs got Slavicized in Serbia? And do you think they would've used lots of Slavic names before they got completely Slavicized?

What do you make of that Serbo-Croatian source that says Vlachs were ethnically distinguished from Serbs, Bulgarians, etc. in the High Middle Ages?

[MinervaItalica]

Croatia i think, but i might be wrong...

[Dušan]

When do you think Vlachs got Slavicized in Serbia?

It happened very early, in my opinion.

This 11th century North Macedonian sample has autosomal genetic similar to modern Serbs.




Distance to: MKD_MA:I2530
0.02649123 Moldovan
0.02950083 Serbian
0.03085576 Romanian
0.03195199 Montenegrin
0.03443137 Bulgarian
0.03584209 Bosnian
0.03609124 Macedonian
0.03677063 Croatian
0.03776997 Gagauz
0.03817394 Slovenian

[Varda]

I wasn't quoting his opinion, the screenshot is part of the original Serbian text of the Žiča Charter, which I could only find posted by him. I couldn't find the original text of the charter online.



So if there were a few Vlach names of Vlach origin like Aukar, Negul, etc, doesn't that mean they were Vlach rather than vlach? Do Serbs ever have such names like Aukar, Negul, etc?

Do you think the 1198 source from Hilander refers to vlachs instead of Vlachs too?

When do you think Vlachs got Slavicized in Serbia? And do you think they would've used lots of Slavic names before they got completely Slavicized?

What do you make of that Serbo-Croatian source that says Vlachs were ethnically distinguished from Serbs, Bulgarians, etc. in the High Middle Ages?

Genetic mixing between Slavs and Vlachs in the Balkans started earlier than anyone expected. Sample from eastern Serbia from 9th century with Slavic Y DNA is half Slavic half Balkan autosomally. Sample from Macedonia from 11th century is like modern Moldovans and Serbs. Samples from Montenegro from 9th to 12th century are also Slavic - Balkanic mix (https://i.ibb.co/SPyHg97/IMG-20220522-224014.jpg).
Earlier i thought Serbs and other south Slavs 800-900 years ago were almost same as Slavs from 6-7th century, and that mixing with Vlachs is product of late middle age and Ottoman period. South Slavs from 11-12th century were genetically closer to modern south Slavs than to early south Slavs.
I am pretty sure that in present day Serbia in high middle age Vlachs (with big V) who were Romance speakers and genetically quite dominant paleo Balkanic in higher number existed only in the southeast towards the modern border with Bulgaria.

[Jana]

My closest population on G25 ancient sheets are medieval Docleans, for my parents too.

They were more south Croat/Bosnian like than like modern Montenegrins and even Serbs.