"Female is real, and it's sex, and femininity is unreal, and it's gender." Discuss.

[Tooting Carmen]

Nature/nurture arguments aside... Is this necessarily a bad thing? Women generally score higher on emotional intelligence and empathy, and men are more intelligent overall, as well as physically stronger. Women are better at enduring long-term pain. Does it not benefit society to guide people into the positions that best utilize the skills they are biologically predisposed towards having? Sure, we shouldn't rag on people for choosing unconventional paths, but if gender roles were actually harmful, they would have disappeared naturally a long time ago, but they're still here.

I don't deny there is SOME connection between biology and behaviour, but it is far less absolute than traditionalists would have us believe.

[InmostLight]

I don't deny there is SOME connection between biology and behaviour, but it is far less absolute than traditionalists would have us believe.

I agree with you somewhat on that. Do you find gender-essentialist ideas to simply be inaccurate, or do you think they're harmful or bad?

[Alenka]

The notion that men are 'naturally' more aggressive and women are 'naturally' more gentle and caring. Also, associating certain occupations with one sex or another, e.g. nursing with women or mechanics with men.

If this is merely a cultural contidioning as you seem to suggest, then how come it's seen pretty much across the globe?
Among thousands of very different cultures.

[Tooting Carmen]

I agree with you somewhat on that. Do you find gender-essentialist ideas to simply be inaccurate, or do you think they're harmful or bad?

My beef is mainly with two extreme, but actually related beliefs: (1) The notion that gender roles are immutable and timeless and (2) the claim by many trans activists that sex (or rather gender) is determined by one's inner feelings, rather than one's biology and body parts.

[Tooting Carmen]

If this is merely a cultural conditioning as you seem to suggest, then how come it's seen pretty much across the globe?
Among thousands of very different cultures.

Up to a point, but there are also examples of tribal societies where men and women either do the same roles or even where women are the primary hunters and providers. And even on an individual basis, one can find very aggressive and determined women and very soft and gentle men (neither of which necessarily reflect their sexuality either).

[InmostLight]

tribal societies where men and women either do the same roles or even where women are the primary hunters and providers

There may be a reason why this isn't in the evolutionary mainstream. People love to bring up tribal examples when advocating for social perversion, seemingly forgetting why they've remained as tribal societies for so long...

[Tooting Carmen]

I would make a similar distinction to Greer when it comes to race and ethnicity: race is biological and real, while ethnicity is fake and socially-constructed. In other words, just because you are White European or Black African it doesn't mean you are destined to think or behave in a particular way; nonetheless, there are clearly biological and genetic differences between both groups.

[Alenka]

Up to a point, but there are also examples of tribal societies where men and women either do the same roles or even where women are the primary hunters and providers. And even on an individual basis, one can find very aggressive and determined women and very soft and gentle men (neither of which necessarily reflect their sexuality either).

Yeah, but if those aggressive and determined females were males, perhaps they would be even more extremely agressive.
And if those very soft and gentle males were females, perhaps they would be even more extremely soft and gentle.

On average, males have way more testosterone than females do. (males: 300-1200ng/dL, females: 15-70 ng/dL)
Testosterone is linked to agression, among other things.
It's that simple.

[RogueState]

This type of question only arises in degenerate societies where what was past considered as mental illness (gender dysphoria, ultra-marginal) has become the "norm" for the sake of "inclusivity, non-discrimination and equality"

[Tooting Carmen]

Yeah, but if those aggressive and determined females were males, perhaps they would be even more extremely agressive.
And if those very soft and gentle males were females, perhaps they would be even more extremely soft and gentle.

On average, males have way more testosterone than females do. (males: 300-1200ng/dL, females: 15-70 ng/dL)
Testosterone is linked to agression, among other things.
It's that simple.

I understand this. But the point is some men, whether individually or collectively, are certainly able to control their aggression much more than others. If not, then far more men than is actually the case would be murderers, rapists and wife-beaters.