Who is the all-time most known (ethnic) Pole?

[Peterski]

Then I don't know what is a national Identity. Can you elaborate?

A national identity is for example what defines being French. In "French model" ethnicity plays a lesser role than national identity.

Also for example being Austrian or being Prussian is a national identity. Or Italian, British, Russian, etc. Do you now get it?

[Creoda]

Nationality and ethnicity are not the same thing.

His nationality was undisputably Polish, just like in the case of Władysław Anders for example (ethnically German):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%8...C5%82aw_Anders

I had imagined it was more the other way round. He identified himself as of German nationality in his time in Italy, in the same way that modern immigrant stock in the West identify with their host nationality and speak their language despite being ethnically different. His surname sounds Slavic origin not Germanic to me (but I may be wrong), and his blood is likely more native Wend than 'German' per se (not trying to refute what rothaer said, just my previous view).

[Peterski]

Was Napoleon Bonaparte ethnically French? In my opinion not because he was Corsican.

But he is the most famous among people French by nationality (or national identity).

He identified himself as of German nationality in his time in Italy

That's because Polish was not among available options to choose from there, AFAIK.

and his blood is likely more native Wend than 'German' per se

Too bad that his auDNA was never published, so we can't upload him to GEDmatch:

https://www.space.com/6934-copernicu...-analysis.html

[rothaer]

Copernicus fought as a Polish Kingdom's commander against the German Teutonic Order:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Allenstein



This is why I compared him to Władysław Anders, who was BTW born in Russia (like Sklodowska).

Interesting. I didn't know for that. But at that time his state, Royal Prussia, did not maintain an own army because the state that Royal Prussia was in a personal union with, Poland, cared for that topic. So what he here did, he did for Royal Prussia that was an arch-opponent of the Teutonic Order. If he did not even have to use Royal Prussians for that, the better.

[Peterski]

Interesting. I didn't know for that. But at that time his state, Royal Prussia, did not maintain an own army because the state that Royal Prussia was in a personal union with, Poland, cared for that topic. So what he here did, he did for Royal Prussia that was an arch-opponent of the Teutonic Order. If he did not even have to use Royal Prussians for that, the better.

I disagree that Royal Prussia was a separate state. It was just an autonomous province of the Polish Kingdom / Polish Crown.

In Medieval times provinces often had autonomy, and for example Mazovia had even more autonomy than Royal Prussia at that time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Masovia - Fiefdom of Kingdom of Poland until 1526

[rothaer]

A national identity is for example what defines being French. In "French model" ethnicity plays a lesser role than national identity.

Also for example being Austrian or being Prussian is a national identity. Or Italian, British, Russian, etc. Do you now get it?

Tbh not really. To my understanding all what you say can be explained by the citizenship. Maybe you can particularly elaborate the difference?

Wladyslaw Anders: I know that he did not have the Polish citizenship at birth but that applies to most citizens of interwar Poland. Did he later not have the citizenship of interwar Poland? (He was born in Congress Poland.)

[Peterski]

To my understanding all what you say can be explained by the citizenship. Maybe you can particularly elaborate the difference?

Should I give you lessons in basics of nationalism?

Nationalism is not only about ethnicity (that is only one branch of nationalism, which is called "ethnic nationalism").

You can have XYZ national identity but no XYZ citizenship, and you can have XYZ citizenship but no XYZ national identity.

For example Orthodox Jews living in Poland were not assimilated and they did not identify with the Polish nation. Neither did Zionists who identified with the Jewish nation. But then there was also a group of so called assimilated Jews who identified as Poles.

[Peterski]

Let's just go with Napoleon Bonaparte - was he a French nationalist? Definitely. But he was not ethnic French.

Or Joseph Stalin - was he a Russian nationalist or at least a Soviet nationalist? But ethnically he was Georgian.

[rothaer]

I disagree that Royal Prussia was a separate state. It was just an autonomous province of the Polish Kingdom / Polish Crown.

In Medieval times provinces often had autonomy, and for example Mazovia had even more autonomy than Royal Prussia at that time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Masovia - Fiefdom of Kingdom of Poland until 1526

That's not the common interpretation among known to me historians.

Regardless of that in the English Wikipedia article is formulated "autonomous province of the Crown of the Polish Kingdom" - which is not the same as the Polish Kingdom - it goes on as for 1466:

"Royal Prussia retained its autonomy, governing itself and maintaining its own laws, customs, rights and German language.[7][8]

In 1569, Royal Prussia was fully integrated into the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland and its autonomy was largely abandoned.[9] As a result, the Royal Prussian parliament was incorporated into the Sejm of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth.[10]"

I can not see what would lack for being a state of it's own.

It's like Canada and Australia being in personal union with Great Britain, having Great Britain's king as the own head of the state. Being a subordinate to the Crown of Great Britain doesn't make them being Great Britain, right?

[Peterski]

which is not the same as the Polish Kingdom

Polish Crown and Polish Kingdom are basically synonyms. Just like for example Bohemian Crown and Bohemian Kingdom.

What about the Holy Roman Empire? It was "neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire" because all parts were autonomous.

It's like Canada being in personal union with Great Britain

More like Canada between 1867 and 1982, back when it was not fully independent from Great Britain.

Between 1867 and 1982 the Dominion of Canada had a similar situation as Royal Prussia before 1569.