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Thread: Is this indicative of Turkish ancestry?

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    Default Is this indicative of Turkish ancestry?

    Hi! I was hoping that someone could please shed some light on whether or not my father's AncestryDNA results are indicative of our supposed Turkish ancestry? Long story short, there is a family legend that we are descended from a Turkish princess. I don't buy the princess part, but I always thought that the Turkish ancestry was legit. However, after digging into a family tree that I found on FamilySearch for that particular branch of the family, I can't seem to find anything showing that (although, there were branches I couldn't get past the early 1830s on.) And it may be on a different part of the family, but unfortunately, I can't ask my grandfather to clarify whether it was through his father or mother. With that being said, a few years ago my father and I did AncestryDNA. I should have asked this question a few years ago, but it didn't cross my mind until this just recently that this may be a good place to ask my own questions. The results I am about to show below are from December 2016, but I figured that they are still decently good. For context, my father is of Scottish, colonial American, Irish (most likely around Cork based off his grandmother's surname before she was adopted,) and possibly Turkish on his father's side, and on his mother's side- his grandfather was from Devon, England, and grandmother from Roscommon, Ireland.

    Results:

    Ireland & Scotland- 74% (Range: 56%-86%)

    England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe- 10% (Range: 0%-28%)

    Scandinavia- 8% (Range: 0%-19%)

    Europe West- 3% (Range: 0%-12%)

    Europe South- 2% (Range: 0%-7%)

    Middle East- <1% (Range: 0%-4%)

    Iberian Peninsula- 1% (Range: 0%-4%)

    Caucasus- <1% (Range: 0%-2%)

    Also, under other regions tested, he did have a 0%-1% Central Asian show up that wasn't on his report.

    When AncestryDNA updated in 2018, his results changed to just Ireland & Scotland at 72% and England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe at 28% (I remember this was the update that everyone complained about how known chunks of their ancestry were missing.)

    In 2019, his results were Ireland & Scotland at 73%, England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe at 26%, and European Jewish at 1%.

    We deactivated our accounts after that, so unfortunately I don't know how it would look now.

    I also played around a bit with GEDMatch- on mixed mode populations, he would generally get a combination of a British Isle population + a Caucasian or Middle Eastern population, and on the Oracle-4s, he would sometimes get either a southern European or a Balkan population in addition to the other three being from the British Isles. However, after looking at some other people's GEDMatch results from the British Isles and Ireland, it doesn't seem to be uncommon for some people to get a Caucasian population in their mixed mode calculations (although, after comparing on Vahaduo, they generally seem to shift towards South Asia, whereas my father's and mine results still stay around the Black Sea coast.)

    For reference as well, my dad's Eurogenes K13 breaks down as the below:

    North Atlantic: 50.12%

    Baltic: 21.16%

    West Med: 14.42%

    West Asian: 8.03%

    East Med: 4.05%

    East Asian: 0.88%

    Amerindian: 0.70%

    Siberian: 0.35%

    Oceanian: 0.29%

    We also did DNA Land, My True Ancestry, and FamilyTree DNA, and none of those provided any results that wouldn't be common outside of the British Isles, with the exception of the very random <1% Magyar result on FamilyTree DNA. However, I wouldn't trust any of those from what I've read.

    My questions are, would you think that my father's results would prove our supposed Turkish ancestry? I know I'm working with an old dataset, but I don't think I've seen primarily British people getting Middle East or Caucasian on their results, and I don't really think that it would be that erroneous and inaccurate to show Middle Eastern and Caucasian, even with a lot less reference populations than there are today. Also, do you think that the European Jewish could be a proxy for the Turkish ancestry? I may be over-simplifying it, or misunderstanding it in general, but from I gather, Jews are a mix of southern European and Middle Eastern, which is similar to how Turks are. And I don't know anything about any Jewish ancestry on his side at all. I can provide some more GEDMatch results as well to help. Thanks for your assistance!

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    If you're getting European Jewish results, you might just be European Jewish. Maybe "Turkish princess" is your family's code for Jew, as "Cherokee Princess" is used to cover up an African American ancestor.

    I personally would put more stock in the Ancestry resuls than the k13 ones. Gedmatch calculators scan you for similarities to the reference populations and snap you to whatever population it can barely connect you to. For example, if you do HarappaWorld, which tests you for ancestry in the Indian subcontinent, it will tell you you're Indian, even if you're not, because it only scans for Desi heritage.

    The marginal Caucasian and Middle Eastern Ancestry results could easily refer to a Turk or a Jew.

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    23AndMe would be a great determining tool in seeing if it’s Turkish or perhaps Jewish ancestry. It famously gets AJ percentages to at about literal, real-world levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texag9517 View Post
    West Asian: 8.03%

    East Asian: 0.88%

    Amerindian: 0.70%

    Siberian: 0.35%
    A Turkish ancestor is very possible yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InmostLight View Post
    If you're getting European Jewish results, you might just be European Jewish. Maybe "Turkish princess" is your family's code for Jew, as "Cherokee Princess" is used to cover up an African American ancestor.

    I personally would put more stock in the Ancestry resuls than the k13 ones. Gedmatch calculators scan you for similarities to the reference populations and snap you to whatever population it can barely connect you to. For example, if you do HarappaWorld, which tests you for ancestry in the Indian subcontinent, it will tell you you're Indian, even if you're not, because it only scans for Desi heritage.

    The marginal Caucasian and Middle Eastern Ancestry results could easily refer to a Turk or a Jew.
    Do you think that there is truth to what AncestryDNA is showing then, that I do have Middle Eastern and Caucasian ancestry? (Regardless of whether it is Turkish or Jewish.) I can see how sometimes AncestryDNA can pick up things that aren't there, but Ireland/Britain or on compete opposite sides of Europe than Turkey is, so I don't see how it could mess up that badly- especially when I have reason to suspect ancestry from that region anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annihilus View Post
    A Turkish ancestor is very possible yes.
    Yeah, on a lot of calculators there is a noticeable amount of some combination of the latter three populations that you listed. However, how do you know when it is noise, versus when it is not? For example, I have heard from some blogs that if it is less than 1%, then you cannot take it seriously. However, on other tests, such as Dodecad World9 and Dodecad K7b, my dad does get above 1% Siberian. I'm just not sure how to exactly interpret what is going on with those percentages, and the more I come across other people of predominantly British and/or Irish descent, the more confused I become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texag9517 View Post
    Do you think that there is truth to what AncestryDNA is showing then, that I do have Middle Eastern and Caucasian ancestry? (Regardless of whether it is Turkish or Jewish.) I can see how sometimes AncestryDNA can pick up things that aren't there, but Ireland/Britain or on compete opposite sides of Europe than Turkey is, so I don't see how it could mess up that badly- especially when I have reason to suspect ancestry from that region anyways.
    There seems to be enough of an overall pattern in your family to make a MENA/WEAsian ancestor pretty plausible, if not likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texag9517 View Post
    Yeah, on a lot of calculators there is a noticeable amount of some combination of the latter three populations that you listed. However, how do you know when it is noise, versus when it is not? For example, I have heard from some blogs that if it is less than 1%, then you cannot take it seriously. However, on other tests, such as Dodecad World9 and Dodecad K7b, my dad does get above 1% Siberian. I'm just not sure how to exactly interpret what is going on with those percentages, and the more I come across other people of predominantly British and/or Irish descent, the more confused I become.
    yes I agree with InmostLight, alone one component could be noise, but there is a pattern.

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    Awesome! The only question is where in my family tree this fits in, but I'm not sure if I would ever be able to figure that out... so the DNA testing really seemed to be the only sure way to tell. Thanks for all of your help!

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    Update: Someone on another site recommended that I get G25 coordinates. I found a way to simulate them based off K36 results, and I was really surprised by how accurate they seem to be. I ran these through the G25 World Countries Calculator K105 (Scaled) Vahaduo tool on Explore Your DNA. I included my mom's results as well as my own- I also am getting a Turkish-adjacent population, so I don't think it's noise since she is of German and Czech descent, and any noise should have gone away at that point, I would think.

    Target: Dad
    Distance: 0.3609% / 0.00360898 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    39.0 Ireland
    28.2 Wales
    23.8 England
    6.0 Scotland
    3.0 Georgia

    I also ran my mom's, and myself, for comparison:

    Target: Mom
    Distance: 0.5716% / 0.00571612 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    71.6 Belgium
    11.0 Slovenia
    9.0 Germany
    8.4 Austria

    Target: Me
    Distance: 0.3938% / 0.00393751 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    48.2 Wales
    29.2 Belgium
    18.8 Holland
    3.8 Georgia

    After removing Georgia (and then subsequently Armenia and Azerbaijan,) my dad's results read Turkey at 0.5x add distance col; however, my Turkish-adjacent population went away until I reduced it back to 0.25x.


    Target: Dad
    Distance: 0.4469% / 0.00446887 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    42.2 Ireland
    29.4 Wales
    25.2 England
    3.2 Turkey


    Target: Me
    Distance: 0.4397% / 0.00439679 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    37.8 Belgium
    36.6 Ireland
    16.0 Wales
    7.6 Montenegro
    2.0 Turkey

    I'm pretty confused since the K36 results didn't really indicate anything that would show up as Turkish, excluding a relatively high (5.09%) of North Caucasian on my dad's results. However, at this point, I'm pretty sure that the Turkish results are legit.

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