How European is Turkey?

[ugochaves]

Taken from Wikipedia:

Having settled Aldeigja (Ladoga) in the 750s, Norse colonists played an important role in the early ethnogenesis of the Rus' people and in the formation of the Rus' Khaganate. The Varangians (Varyags, in Old East Slavic) are first mentioned by the Primary Chronicle as having exacted tribute from the Slavic and Finnic tribes in 859. It was the time of rapid expansion of the Vikings in Northern Europe; England began to pay Danegeld in 859, and the Curonians of Grobin faced an invasion by the Swedes at about the same date.

It has been argued that the word Varangian, in its many forms, does not appear in primary sources until the eleventh century (though it does appear frequently in later sources describing earlier periods). This suggests that the term Rus' was used broadly to denote Scandinavians until it became too firmly associated with the subsequent elite of Kievan Rus who assimilated Slavic culture. At that point, the new term Varangian was increasingly preferred to name Scandinavians, probably mostly from what is now Sweden,[24] plying the river routes between the Baltic and the Black and Caspian Seas.[25]

Due largely to geographic considerations, it is often argued that most of the Varangians who traveled and settled in the lands of eastern Baltic, modern Russia and lands to the south came from the area of modern Sweden.

Yes and some of the Rus people had I haplogroups. Not your typical Slavic haplgroup right? Everything just points to Norse origin of Varangians who were a small group of people.

The word Rus' is a Finno-Ugric "Ruotsi" word adapted in the Slavic environment as a self-designation at the beginning of the IX century. Varangians - a later name for Scandinavian mercenaries of the 12th century. The genetics of the Ladoga Varangians are well known - almost all of them are Swedes. It is unknown who the first Rus' were. Most likely, a mixture of representatives of different peoples: Slavs, Scandinavians and local Finno-Ugrians. The ancient Persian chronicler of the beginning of the IX century, Ibn Khordadbeh, directly called the Russ Slavic-speaking. Moreover, the very name Rus is Slavianized. It is unlikely that the Scandinavian invaders would have called themselves and their ruler by the name of the conquered Slavic peoples. According to other Arabic and Persian sources, the Russian khaganate was most likely located at the sources of the Volga. However, the Dnieper rapids "in Russian", which were listed by Konstantin Porphyrogenitus, are named in Scandinavian. Therefore, apparently, at different times and in different places, representatives of different peoples entered the military caste - Rus'.

[Methuselah]

The word Rus' is a Finno-Ugric "Ruotsi" word adapted in the Slavic environment as a self-designation at the beginning of the IX century. Varangians - a later name for Scandinavian mercenaries of the 12th century. The genetics of the Ladoga Varangians are well known - almost all of them are Swedes. It is unknown who the first Rus' were. Most likely, a mixture of representatives of different peoples: Slavs, Scandinavians and local Finno-Ugrians. The ancient Persian chronicler of the beginning of the IX century, Ibn Khordadbeh, directly called the Russ Slavic-speaking. Moreover, the very name Rus is Slavianized. It is unlikely that the Scandinavian invaders would have called themselves and their ruler by the name of the conquered Slavic peoples. According to other Arabic and Persian sources, the Russian khaganate was most likely located at the sources of the Volga. However, the Dnieper rapids "in Russian", which were listed by Konstantin Porphyrogenitus, are named in Scandinavian. Therefore, apparently, at different times and in different places, representatives of different peoples entered the military caste - Rus'.

Why it's unlikely they would have called themselves by the name of conquered Slavic people? What if they were mixed bags already at this point, more Russian by identity i mean? I also believe they must have been affected by all- Slavs, Finns and Scandinavians. Later also by Tatars, as many Russian leaders had this blood.

The name Rus' comes from an Old Norse word for 'the men who row. I never heard about Finno Ugric theory. Again, we don't know for sure but even Finnish swearing word Ryssä (fucking Russian) comes from Swedish word ryss (often not a swearing word).

[ugochaves]

Why it's unlikely they would have called themselves by the name of conquered Slavic people? What if they were mixed bags already at this point, more Russian by identity i mean? I also believe they must have been affected by all- Slavs, Finns and Scandinavians. Later also by Tatars, as many Russian leaders had this blood.

The name Rus' comes from an Old Norse word for 'the men who row. I never heard about Finno Ugric theory. Again, we don't know for sure but even Finnish swearing word Ryssä (fucking Russian) comes from Swedish word ryss (often not a swearing word).

The association of the Swedish word (or rather the root of the word) rōþs (ross) and the Finnish ruotsi is the middle of the 19th century. It was proposed by the Russian historian A.A. Kunik.

Directly the Germanic basis of rus could not pass into the Slavic word "Rus". The sound [o] in Slavic languages does not pass into [u]. That's why we found the Finnish word "ruotsi". Ruotsi passes according to the phonetic patterns of the Old Russian language into the Slavic "Rus".

However!, the independent word rōþs did not exist in the Old Germanic languages. This is the basis of complex words, for example - rōþs-menn, rōþs-karlar (rowers, sailors). Therefore, modern historians are critical of the possible prototype of this word, the word ruotsi.

In the Sami language, the word rōc:о means "enemy, opponent", for example. In the language of some Veps, Ruotsi call Finns Suomi because they are Lutherans, "strangers, opponents" and not Orthodox, and in the language of the Komi people rots - Russians, also in the meaning of a stranger.

[Methuselah]

The association of the Swedish word (or rather the root of the word) rōþs (ross) and the Finnish ruotsi is the middle of the 19th century. It was proposed by the Russian historian A.A. Kunik.

Directly the Germanic basis of rus could not pass into the Slavic word "Rus". The sound [o] in Slavic languages does not pass into [u]. That's why we found the Finnish word "ruotsi". Ruotsi passes according to the phonetic patterns of the Old Russian language into the Slavic "Rus".

However!, the independent word rōþs did not exist in the Old Germanic languages. This is the basis of complex words, for example - rōþs-menn, rōþs-karlar (rowers, sailors). Therefore, modern historians are critical of the possible prototype of this word, the word ruotsi.

In the Sami language, the word rōc:о means "enemy, opponent", for example. In the language of some Veps, Ruotsi call Finns Suomi because they are Lutherans, "strangers, opponents" and not Orthodox, and in the language of the Komi people rots - Russians, also in the meaning of a stranger.

Ruotsi also comes from Scandinavian, not Finno-Ugric or Slavic word.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ruotsi

[ugochaves]

Why it's unlikely they would have called themselves by the name of conquered Slavic people? What if they were mixed bags already at this point, more Russian by identity i mean? I also believe they must have been affected by all- Slavs, Finns and Scandinavians. Later also by Tatars, as many Russian leaders had this blood.

The name Rus' comes from an Old Norse word for 'the men who row. I never heard about Finno Ugric theory. Again, we don't know for sure but even Finnish swearing word Ryssä (fucking Russian) comes from Swedish word ryss (often not a swearing word).

1. There is not a single example when the conquerors called themselves by the name of the conquered immediately upon arrival in the country. There must be a certain period of assimilation. Moreover, the usual examples are Hungarians and Bulgarians. The first mention of the name Rus is 830-840 years.

2. I don't want to say much, here is a quote from the ancient codex of the 840s. Author, Persian Ibn-Khordadbeh:

As for the Russian merchants, and they are a division of the Slavs, they carry beaver furs, silver fox and swords from the remote lands of the Slavs to the Rumian Sea (Black), and the ruler of Rum (Constantinople) takes tithes from them. And then they go along the Don, the river of the Slavs, enter Hamlidj, the city of the Khazars, and their ruler takes tithes from them. Then they go to the Jurjan Sea and get out to any of its favorite shores, and the circumference of this sea is 500 farsangs. Sometimes they transport their goods from Jurjan on camels to Baghdad, and Slavonic servants translate for them, and they say they are Christians, and pay jizya

The Rus are a division of the Slavs, and they are translated into Arabic by Slavic eunuch slaves who were in the service in Baghdad. I don't think the Slavic eunuchs knew the Scandinavian language.

3. Modern archaeologists do not find traces of the Scandinavians on the territory of Russia before the end of the IX century.* There were also no Scandinavians on the Volga until the 10th century. Volga Rus (Russian Khaganate) has been known since the beginning of the IX century. However, at the beginning of the 10th century, the Russian squad began to be replenished with a powerful stream of Varangians from Scandinavia. This is probably due to the vocation of the Scandinavian Prince Rurik and the strengthening of his supreme power.

* Ladoga Scandinavian village with a population of several dozen people in 750 (which, according to archaeological data, was completely destroyed by the Krivichi) is in no way connected with the Varangians of the 10th century and Russia.

[ugochaves]

Ruotsi also comes from Scandinavian, not Finno-Ugric or Slavic word.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ruotsi

Ruotsi - there is no such word in the Scandinavian language. And there never was. Perhaps the word is not Finnish, but comes from an ancient substrate.
Wikipedia is a dubious source. I take information straight from the works of linguists and historians of recent years. I have written the proofs for self-reflection. Try to understand my arguments. Links to Wikipedia are not relevant.

[Victor]

Methuselah is one of the most weird users here who puts some questions which make people discuss everything but not the exact question, probably because it's too general.

[Methuselah]

Ruotsi - there is no such word in the Scandinavian language. And there never was. Perhaps the word is not Finnish, but comes from an ancient substrate.
Wikipedia is a dubious source. I take information straight from the works of linguists and historians of recent years. I have written the proofs for self-reflection. Try to understand my arguments. Links to Wikipedia are not relevant.

Of course there is no word "ruotsi" in Swedish language because it's a Finnish word, i just said the origin of this word is in old Norse. Wikipedia's article is irrelevant, Swedes and Finns in general agree.

Why should i accept your arguments? I'm agreeing on certain things and not agreeing on others. The word "ruotsi" probably stems from old Norse if i have understood your argument (finno-ugric origin) right. Don't forget we are not super fluent in English, so it's good to repeat sometimes if other person got it wrong.

[ugochaves]

Of course there is no word "ruotsi" in Swedish language because it's a Finnish word, i just said the origin of this word is in old Norse. Wikipedia's article is irrelevant, Swedes and Finns in general agree.

Why should i accept your arguments? I'm agreeing on certain things and not agreeing on others. The word "ruotsi" probably stems from old Norse if i have understood your argument (finno-ugric origin) right. Don't forget we are not super fluent in English, so it's good to repeat sometimes if other person got it wrong.

Yes, it's hard for me to explain it in English. I'll put it simply. The word "robs "- rower in Old Norse never existed. It was reconstructed hypothetically. There is a word "robsmann"- Sailor . If you remove "-mann" from this word, then the first part will mean nothing.

[Mortimer]

Many "parts of Turkey" are as much European as Sarajevo...which is in Europe... I think most Turks are white passing