Why Russia couldn't become like Scandinavian social democracy/more European at the time of Gorba?

[Lemminkäinen]

The Merya people used to be considered Volga Finns because of the similarity of the name with Mari. According to new data, these were most likely Baltic Finns related to Veps

In the great Russia people have become mixed in many ways, but according Finnish and Estonian linguists Merya doesn't belong to Baltic Finnic languages. It has to be diverged from the common linguistic root 3000 years ago. Veps is related to Karelia and Karelia to Finnish.

[Lemminkäinen]

You are a Finn and you talk about data.
Not that I am ungrateful, mind you - so don’t get me wrong.
But, I talk about identity rather, that is Ingrian, Karelian, Veps, Saami, Russian Pomor (& a bit of Komi).
Identity, which is a *felt* old Novgorodian cultural sphere you have never known.

I was not talking about your identity, but mine. I share my identity with people who have lived here 2000 years or longer. Of course identity is a personal feeling and we can't deny the identity of other people, I don't try it, but I neither like how other people try to sell me strange ideas. You can get ideas of my identity by reading with open mind Walter Lang's Homo Fennicus. If you read it, please forget your spirit and digest the story like you read a story about people who you never knew before.

[Aila]

The Ingrians I have met, to me were more Russian than anything and why not, if that is how they feel about their identity.
But the now extinct Meryan language, people …. ? Lemmi, sorry, you have got more idea there with your data, than me ….

I also do not know what this “neo-Meryan movement” is about:
http://www.merjamaa.ru/index/in_sear..._kihlanki/0-43

Artwork looks great but ….

[Rumata]

It's nice to see the thread turning in a reasonable direction

[ugochaves]

In the great Russia people have become mixed in many ways, but according Finnish and Estonian linguists Merya doesn't belong to Baltic Finnic languages. It has to be diverged from the common linguistic root 3000 years ago. Veps is related to Karelia and Karelia to Finnish.

In the great Russia people have become mixed in many ways, but according Finnish and Estonian linguists Merya doesn't belong to Baltic Finnic languages. It has to be diverged from the common linguistic root 3000 years ago. Veps is related to Karelia and Karelia to Finnish.

Merya left a small toponymic trace. I am sure that this mystery will never be solved completely. There are some authoritative Russian authors who classify Western Merya as Balto-Slavs. Based on cultural archaeological finds, the culture of Western Merya was very developed in terms of agriculture, unlike the Finnish neighbors of the Veps and Karelians, who were hunter-gatherers

[Lemminkäinen]

Merya left a small toponymic trace. I am sure that this mystery will never be solved completely. There are some authoritative Russian authors who classify Western Merya as Balto-Slavs. Based on cultural archaeological finds, the culture of Western Merya was very developed in terms of agriculture, unlike the Finnish neighbors of the Veps and Karelians, who were hunter-gatherers

I would be interested in the distribution of the HG I1 among Estonians, Karelians and Veps and why not also in other North Russians. In general it is not interesting, but I know that in the Karelian Isthmus (the region around Ladogan, espesially southwestern and southeastern sides) the Finnish I1 is very common. We know now two Finnish I1 west-to-east migration, the first happened 2500 years sgo from Scandinavia to Finland or via Estonia to Finland, and then we know that Karelia were at least partly populated from Finland 1300-1400 years ago. It is indisputable in the light of the archaelogy. So the question remains about the Finnish I1 clade in Veps population, as well as in Estonia. Estonia and Finland has made inclusive genetic reasearch covering male haplogroups, but both countries are not willing to publish results, but we have thousands Finnish results in Familytreedna projects giving answers, as well as Swedish, German, and British projects giving distributions in the West Europe, but we have not statistically good FtDna projects from Estonia and Russia. Male haplogrouos would tell about migrations more than in studies usually seen autosomal data, but for some unkown reason researchers are not interested in using male haplogroups and datings in that purpose

Btw. first signs of farming in Finland has found 7000 years ago, but in a widescale form it started 3500 years ago.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...59683616660164

Just to mention this, because I am sure that the Russian science has found the Finns as Hunter-Gatherers, because the state controlled reseaech is willing to support the superiority idea.

[ugochaves]

I would be interested in the distribution of the HG I1 among Estonians, Karelians and Veps and why not also in other North Russians. In general it is not interesting, but I know that in the Karelian Isthmus (the region around Ladogan, espesially southwestern and southeastern sides) the Finnish I1 is very common. We know now two Finnish I1 west-to-east migration, the first happened 2500 years sgo from Scandinavia to Finland or via Estonia to Finland, and then we know that Karelia were at least partly populated from Finland 1300-1400 years ago. It is indisputable in the light of the archaelogy. So the question remains about the I1 clade in Veps population, as well as in Estonia. Estonia and Finland has made inclusive genetic reasearch covering male haplogroups, but both countries are not willing to publish results, but we have thousands Finnish results in Familytreedna projects giving answers, as well as Swedish, German, and British projects giving distributions in the West Europe, but we have not statistically good FtDna projects from Estonia and Russia.

Btw. first signs of farming in Finland has found 7000 years ago, but in a widescale form it started 3500 years ago.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...59683616660164

Just to mention this, because I am sure that the Russian science has found the Finns as Hunter-Gatherers.

Finns settled Fenoskandia by the 8th century AD. Before that, there was a Baltic-Finnish community that lived somewhere on the southern coast of Ladoga. I1 is a pre-Indo-European and Dauphin haplogroup with various ancient subclades. This haplogroup cannot be a marker of Finns' migrations.
There were no Finns 3500 thousand years ago in Fenoskandia. You remind me of the Ukrainians who dug up the Black Sea.

[Lemminkäinen]

Finns settled Fenoskandia by the 8th century AD. Before that, there was a Baltic-Finnish community that lived somewhere on the southern coast of Ladoga. I1 is a pre-Indo-European and Dauphin haplogroup with various ancient subclades. This haplogroup cannot be a marker of Finns' migrations.
There were no Finns 3500 thousand years ago in Fenoskandia. You remind me of the Ukrainians who dug up the Black Sea.

Bullshit. Russian science is obviously a tool of politics. I1 haplogroup tree proves without doubt that the first migration of Finns came here from Southern Sweden around 2500 years ago, maybe earlier, by chance at the same time with agriculture. Estonian scientists has proved that Baltic Finnic (language) migration came here around 2000 years ago, somewhat earlier to Estonia, which was already populated by Scandinavians. I don't see it worthwhile to discuse with you about this topic, because you have been "saturated" by the governnent driven unscientific froth.

[Lemminkäinen]

The Ingrians I have met, to me were more Russian than anything and why not, if that is how they feel about their identity.
But the now extinct Meryan language, people …. ? Lemmi, sorry, you have got more idea there with your data, than me ….

I also do not know what this “neo-Meryan movement” is about:
http://www.merjamaa.ru/index/in_sear..._kihlanki/0-43

Artwork looks great but ….

Ingrians were originally Karelians an East Finns who moved to Russia, near Moscow (I can't say how near though). People are confused about term itself and think that Izhorians were Ingrians. No, they were different people. The mistake comes from the Swedish region name Ingermanland, which were populated by Karelians and Izhorians. Another term confusing people in Russia is "Old Finland" meaning the are around Vyborg. Historically the old (ancient) Finland is Finland Proper, but "Old Finland" is one example again how the Russian government has played by words and meanings.

I know nothing about neo-Meryans. Maybe it is a new Russian try to confuse people, but I don't know and not even want to know if I don't see seriously taken Finnish or Estonian studies. Give me a hint.

[ugochaves]

Bullshit. Russian science is obviously a tool of politics. I1 haplogroup tree proves without doubt that the first migration of Finns came here from Southern Sweden around 2500 years ago, maybe earlier, by chance at the same time with agriculture. Estonian scientists has proved that Baltic Finnic (language) migration came here around 2000 years ago, somewhat earlier to Estonia, which was already populated by Scandinavians. I don't see it worthwhile to discuse with you about this topic, because you have been "saturated" by the governnent driven unscientific froth.

Do you associate Finns and i1? Then show i1 in the Urals, because, undoubtedly, the Finnish language originated from there. There is an undoubted fact in any European textbook that haplogroup I1 and I2 are European, not Uralic. There is no political propaganda in Russian science, on the contrary, it is devoid of any political patriotism.