Do Kurds deserve to be independent?

[Babak]

Paniranism isnt popular among Kurds, more among Persians. Integral part of Kurdish nationalism is the idea of repressed Kurdish people by bigger and more powerful arabs, Persians and Turks, their main goal is breaking this subjugation. On the other hand Panturkism is more widespread among Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turks. But I have another impression about Iranian Turks, who are very proud of their Turkish identity but still don’t really want to be independent from Iran. Turkish independent movements are irrelevant in Iran, in cities like Tehran ethnic identity is a matter of your own definition, like in many other places. Outside of Turkiye and Azerbaijan, Panturanism isn’t popular.



Why are you so hostile towards Kurds, I mean I am an ethnic Turk too but I don’t hide myself behind compelled nationalism. I know Kurdish history and I know they aren’t innocent, nor it is that easy becoming independent. But they are a fact, they experienced oppression and even their situation isn’t that bad like in 90s, people can see that Turkish attitude towards them isn’t positive in Turkiye. My great…greatgrandfathers died in the (first?)Balkan war and Galipoli, I understand if people are emotional if it comes to giving piece of your own country away. But like Arabiam peninsular or non Turkish/Muslim Balkan countries, is it really worthwhile to die for foreign land? And don’t say it is your land like you said it, it isn’t, we ruled that area and yes also Turks lived and still live there, but it isn’t the main area of Turkish sphere(anymore). Besides of that, aren’t you living outside of Turkiye?

Paniranism is pretty much dead tbh. Persians care only about Iran.

For kurdistan to be recognized as an actual nation, a few things have to happen:

1: Kill a shit ton of people
2. Create chaos between ethnic groups, in this case, it would be Persians, Turks and Arabs. Classic divide and conquer.
3 Further destabilize national borders and kill a shit ton of more people

As for Iran, despite the extremely shitty situation that its in, its still culturally and ethnically intact. People dont have timeto think about ethnicity there. As of now, its about survival and money.

[Your Old Comrade]

My feelings towards that part of the world can be summed up as: "don't know, don't care". I suppose we in Europe have our own fish to fry. A fish that, perhaps, is also far more important to, let's say, Turkey. The Kurdish Question can wait.

[Blondie]

lol are you daft or something? What do you mean by If Turks want Kurdistan? What you refer to as Kurdistan is Turkey. I can go live there tomorrow if I want, and any Kurd can live anywhere they want in Turkey.

No need personal insults just because you cant argue. Kurdistan is now part of Turkey, but it doesnt mean its turkish land.
If your such fanatic turk nationalist why dont you live in Turkey?

[Dušan]

Kurdish regions have much higher fertility rate than other parts.

Demography wise, Kurds can wait and multiply and take even more they hold now.

We talked about this topic weeks ago, Kurdish birth rate will probably drop in the next years and their fertility rate won’t be different to Turkish fertility rate. Also humans aren’t barbarians, why should they get children just to become independent, that is irresponsible.

It will take 2-3 decades to Kurdish fertility rate fall and be the same low as Turkish.
Meanwhile, their percentage in total population will grow dramatically.

By the way, I was very surprised seeing how low is fertility rate in Turkish populated provinces.

[Annihilus]

No need personal insults just because you cant argue. Kurdistan is now part of Turkey, but it doesnt mean its turkish land.
If your such fanatic turk nationalist why dont you live in Turkey?

I was mild but you are right, I should not have said that.

You do contradict yourself however. That part of Turkey has belonged to Turks uninterupted from 1037 on, how can it not be Turkish lands? I just don't get it. There is also the matter of kurdification that took place there, but I don't feel like getting into that.

[Blondie]

I was mild but you are right, I should not have said that.

You do contradict yourself however. That part of Turkey has belonged to Turks uninterupted from 1037 on, how can it not be Turkish lands? I just don't get it. There is also the matter of kurdification that took place there, but I don't feel like getting into that.

In my opinion the current majority population determines who owns the land, not the murky historical rights. Nobody cares what happened 1000 years ago, its irrelevant and there is no justice in the history just weapons and birth rate.
If your government doesnt do anything with kurds then once they will be independent for sure.

[Laly]

I didn't really have an a priori on Kurds, although I had heard about their role in the genocide of Christians in the Ottoman Empire. But I have been to what is, in a way, the only Kurdish State, that is Iraqi Kurdistan and I came back absolutely disgusted by the Kurds.

This is what I wrote on my trip:

"The majority of the population in Iraqi Kurdistan is composed with Kurds (Sunni). I have been able to see how divided they are. I have learned, for ex., that the PKK, very well known for its activities in Turkey, is considered to be terrorist in Iraqi Kurdistan. The Kurds have a very clan, tribal mentality. Currently, Iraqi Kurdistan is being ruled by the Barzani tribe, with Masood Barzani, but there are important rivalries with other clans/tribes, for ex. in Sulaymaniyah region. Also, I have seen that the Kurds speak Kurdish dialects that are different from a region to the other and for ex. the Kurdish from Erbil is hardly understandable to a Kurd from Sulaymaniyah region.

As for the minorities, Yazidis and Christians are important. We have met Yazidis and Christians and I feel really revolted by their situation. These minorities suffer so much, they are really ostracized, humiliated, attacked. I had not seen or heard things that were that bad in Syria. Clearly, Christians have a better situation in Syria than in Iraqi Kurdistan. In Syria, I heard about a lot of atrocities and humiliations during the jihadist (Isis, Al Nosra) occupation. At that time, a lot of “random” Muslims sided with the jihadists and attacked Christians. Now, in the territories taken back by Assad, the Christians have their dignity back, the situation is better. Nevertheless, the situation in Syria is far from optimal and the humiliation of Christians by the Muslim majority is part of the daily life. I have several examples illustrating this situation. I will tell one, given by the Chaldean Catholic bishop of Aleppo, Antoine Audo. He said that not long before our arrival, a photography contest, with photos representing Aleppo, was organized and the photo that won was representing a little church, with its cross, surrounded by several crescent moons from mosques. These crescent moons were higher than the cross, and they decorated mosques that were much more massive than the little church. The organizers of the contest, when they delivered the prize, explained that the photo showed well the status of inferiority of Christianity, being humiliated by Islam, which fairly dominates over it. I have indeed noticed in Syria that where there is a church, in cities such as Aleppo, as soon as possible, Muslims will build a mosque bigger than the church, next to it or in front of it, the purpose being to show the menacing domination of Islam. I am sure that if Assad was not there anymore, it would be absolutely terrible for the Christians in Syria. They would surely suffer like the Christians in Iraqi Kurdistan or it would be even worse, God knows what would happen. I believe only an authoritarian regime, non-Muslim like the one of Assad or something of the same style, in that region of the world, can guarantee the minimal security and the dignity for the religious minorities. Thanks to it, the heinous ardors of Muslims are somewhat muzzled.

It was really interesting to meet Yazidis, to learn about their religion. The association I went to Iraq with also helped the Yazidis during Isis period and the Yazidis we met were really grateful. The Yazidi religious leader of Lalesh told us about his ethno-religious group. The Yazidis are racially Kurds, they speak Kurdish and they would have kept the ancient Kurdish religion. The religious leader told us that unlike in Zoroastrianism, where there are two principles – the good and the bad, in the Yazidi religion, there is only one, so it’s really a monotheism and this single principle is responsible, at the same time, for the good and for the bad. And all the bad would be incarnated by a peacock. So, to appease the peacock, so that the bad would not rage, it’s necessary to worship it. This peacock has really a central place in their religion and they often represent it. Because of that, they are called “worshippers of Satan” by Muslims are greatly persecuted.

The situation of Christians in Iraqi Kurdistan really broke my heart. They are constantly humiliated, harassed, mocked, discriminated, persecuted, assaulted, attacked, they don’t have the same value as a Kurd, as a Muslim, in the justice system. It is really a situation of desolation, of helplessness. The Christians there are really the autochthons of the region, they descend from the Assyrians and they speak and use daily the Aramaic/Assyrian/Syriac language. The Muslims there call that “the Christian language”. The Christians are then the most polyglots of the region, because they speak not only “the Christian language”, but also Kurdish and Arabic. The Kurds descend from the Medes, who defeated the Assyrians. The Kurds have a sense of superiority linked to that too, they despise Assyrians and they denigrate everything that is connected to Assyrian culture. It’s another way to denigrate Christians. The Assyrian culture is indeed perennial among Christians, who still, for ex., celebrate the Assyrian New Year, which is a four millennia old celebration and it was the 1st April, very recently. And they have beautiful Assyrian folk costumes too.

In Ankawa, the Christian district (having its own mayor) of Erbil, after a mass I attended, several women came to me, speaking to me in English. They wanted to testimony. They insisted on how their children are regularly being humiliated at university. For ex., at the beginning of the year, in the lecture theatres, the professors ask the Christians to get up and then they start to greatly insult Christianity, Jesus, the Trinity, etc. And all the other students applaud and laugh. During the whole year the Christians are being discriminated by the teachers, because of their faith and they are often totally unfairly given bad marks, while the other students despise them, are being suspicious towards them, avoid them, not wanting to share information, etc. Fortunately, and that will be the note of hope, recently, the Archbishop of Erbil, Bashar Matti Warda, managed to find a solution for that problem and he created the Catholic University of Erbil, where all Christians can go and study in a favorable environment. I have visited that university, it’s very modern and we went for dinner in the university’s restaurant, it is very modern, very well decorated, everyone is very elegant there.

Consuming alcohol is another difficulty for Christians, including for mass wine, as there are always more restrictions. One of our guides, Mario, a 25 years old Syriac Catholic, who is soon going to marry his fiancée, has not been able to find a beautiful wedding venue accepting the consumption of alcohol and very often, when the owners understand he’s a Christian (already because of his first name), they directly refuse to rent the venue to him. And during Ramadan, nobody can eat in public spaces, including Christians.

There is a real wish to eradicate the Christian presence from the region and this desire can be found everywhere in the population, at all levels. Many express openly the wish to “finish” the work of eradication of Christianity that started centuries ago. In Christian villages, especially during the night, there are Kurds who arrive, who are not necessarily from neighbouring villages, but also from towns, and they put fences around parcels belonging to Christians and produce fake certificates of property. When Christians get up at night and see what’s happening, they are violently beaten up, sometimes killed. In these villages, the Christians can’t sleep peacefully. And those acts of violence are invariably unpunished. We have, by the way, been shown videos of these acts of violence. Sometimes, when the Christian villages have the means, they try to organise a militia. Even if the certificates of property provided by the Kurds are obviously fake and if there are many Christian witnesses confirming that those lands belong to their Christian neighbour since generations, it’s always the Kurds that win the case. The mukhtar (village chief) of Badaresh told us about that issue lengthily and because he tried to defend the best he could the village, he was put in jail several times. During our sojourn, several people from a Christian militia were killed, trying to defend their lands. If these Christian farmers don’t have their lands anymore, they will be obliged to leave, and that’s what Kurds want, they want them abroad. Another problem these Christian farmers have is that it’s not so easy for them to sell their production, for ex. apples. In fact, Iraqi Kurdistan market is invaded by Turkish apples, which have a lower cost. That’s why the association with which I did that trip, that is SOS Oriental Christians, proposed to create cooperatives, so that it would be more advantageous for the farmers to produce apples. An agreement from the Kurdish authorities was necessary. The authorities refused. They liked the idea, but they didn’t want the Christians to take advantage of it. They quickly implemented the idea, but for Kurds.

Also, when we were at Rabban Hormizd monastery, the atmosphere was oppressive, the priest was really bad-tempered. The place was vandalised not long before by Kurds, who destroyed objects and wrote anti-Christian blasphemous inscriptions, sometimes engraved in the stone and plenty of “Allah Akhbar”. These Kurds have also filmed themselves doing that, doing also obscene gestures. And this was left without further action, if was left unpunished.

So, the situation really seems inextricable, it seems like we have only our eyes to cry.

What I found very interesting is that a priest made us realise that the Christians in the region don’t traditionally represent the Crucifixion of the Christ and that is because it’s a martyr Church there. The martyrdom of the Christ relates to the one of the Church of the Orient. The Christians don’t need to be reminded the Christ’s sufferance all the time, to refer to it all the time, since this martyrdom is already part of their daily life. So, they put the emphasis on the Resurrection of the Christ, a source of hope for them.

The Christians there feel totally abandoned. They were so happy to meet us, it was incredible. We were in a spiritual union with them. Our moral support was so precious to them. In the Christian town of Teleskoff, for ex., while I was in the street, looking at a church, an old woman came to me. She kissed me lengthily and put her medal representing the Virgin Mary around my neck.

What we’ve heard repeatedly from Christians there is that they know what is happening in Europe, they are very well aware of the current Islamisation of Europe and of the tragic consequences it has. The Christians we’ve met said themselves their ancestors made a huge mistake letting Islam and Muslims penetrate the region. And now, they see, with a great fear, that we are doing the same tragic mistake. They really warn us about that and I can only take that very seriously. Their situation may very well constitute our future. By the way, the Yazidis we met said the same, they wanted absolutely to tell us about the gravity of the situation in Europe, because of the Islamisation. The priest of Mor Mattay monastery told us that a few years ago, a German journalist interviewed him. He told the journalist about the relationships with Muslims, he described the situation. The German journalist couldn’t accept what he said and he told the priest: “aren’t you a fascist?”. That’s where we are… What a wilful blindness…"

[Lobster]

Sure autonomy, but not independence.

[Annihilus]

In my opinion the current majority population determines who owns the land, not the murky historical rights. Nobody cares what happened 1000 years ago, its irrelevant and there is no justice in the history just weapons and birth rate.
If your government doesnt do anything with kurds then once they will be independent for sure.

Kurds never had a state ever in history, Turks had dozens. Even PKK was founded by a half Turk. They are too divided, too tribal, 99% of them speak only Turkish. I don't think they will ever have an own state.

[tk'es]

if a sect decides and if it profits kurds will get independence even now.. no one expected a new state named israel instead of palestine in the 40s, or e.g collapse of the ussr in the beginning of the 90s.. the same applies to the wars in afghanistan and iraq, a large mass was fooled afterwards.. now they're busy with ukraine and russia, they are literally castrating the male population