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Thread: O1b2-47z and R1b-DF47

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    Default O1b2-47z and R1b-DF47


    There is “some look-alike” between yDNA R1b-DF27 and the “pirating Wa” Japanese branch named yDNA O1b2-47z.

    It spurred great interest in East Asia.

    The Korean scientist Choongwon Jeong discovered the Austronesian-related component in the Botai specimen belonging to yDNA R1b.

    The Chinese “Ancient Mitogenomes Reveal the Origins and Genetic Structure of the Neolithic Shimao Population in Northern China” pointed to the existence of the typically Austronesian female mtDNA which has a Mesolithic branch found in Central Asians, which might have joined the Botai population.

    The ancient DNA in the international research points that the ancient O1b2-47z member had a connection to the part of this “Austronesian mtDNA”-related Austronesian population, which remained in China and split into two parts: one part later traveled to Taiwan and became one of the important constituents of seafaring Austronesians, whereas another part stayed in the coastal zone of the Neolithic China, and one of direct male ancestors of O1b2-47z was taken to this Austronesian population, and O1b2-47z was born in this Austronesian population.

    Here is a more detailed description of the story of O1b2-47z. The Neolithic Beiqian settlement from the coastal zone of Shandong yielded early examples of rice use, but the settlement was isolated from the mainland, according to “Maternal genetic structure in ancient Shandong between 9500 and 1800 years ago”. The Austronesian-related lineage from the ancient DNA of Beiqian, who should be suspected to bring the use of rice to Beiqian, is an Austronesian mtDNA B4c1b2a-related lineage. “Ancient Mitogenomes Reveal the Origins and Genetic Structure of the Neolithic Shimao Population in Northern China” points that mtDNA B4c1b2a is now often found in the Tao/Thao people, indigenous Austronesians of Taiwan. The Thao people are composed of 100% yDNA O1a-M119, which is typical of Austronesians. It means that coastal mtDNA B4c1b2a-related people that brought rice to Beiqian were also likely 100% yDNA O1a-M119-related. So, according to the rules of matriarchy the ancestor of O1b2-47z should have been passed from Beiqian to mtDNA B4c1b2a-related 100% yDNA O1a-M119-related Austronesian ancestors of the Thao people. However, as we can see, there is no yDNA O1b2-47 left in the 100% yDNA O1a-M119 Thao people. So “Ancient Mitogenomes Reveal the Origins and Genetic Structure of the Neolithic Shimao Population in Northern China” points to one more mtDNA lineage in the Thao people, which had a connection to the necessary “Austronesian mtDNA”-related Austronesian population which had produced a Central Asia-related offshoot which had been likely to reach yDNA R1b-related peoples via the Botai , whereas another part of this Austronesian people remained in China and split into two parts: one part later traveled to Taiwan and became one of the important constituents of seafaring Austronesians, whereas another part stayed in the coastal zone of the Neolithic China, and one of direct male ancestors of O1b2-47z was taken to this Austronesian population, and O1b2-47z was born in this Austronesian population. So Neolithic Beiqian is likely to pass pre O1b2-47z to the Thao-related mtDNA B4c1b2a-related 100% yDNA O1a-M119-related Austronesians, who were the closest neighbours of Beiqian in the Neolithic, and, from this Thao-related Austronesian population, the offspring of that pre O1b2-47z was passed to Austronesian-related population of coastal China, which on the one hand had been likely to produce the genetic connection to yDNA R1b-related Botai, and on the other hand, contributed to seafaring Austronesians, but the coastal part of this population in China became a homeland for the very yDNA O1b2-47z individual, the ancestor of all O1b2-47z in the world.

    The Austronesian-related component described above should be Austronesian linguistically as well, rather than “Para-Austronesian”, because such mtDNA haplogroups are closely connected to the Austronesians.

    “Ancient Mitogenomes Reveal the Origins and Genetic Structure of the Neolithic Shimao Population in Northern China” pointed to some other Austronesian-related mtDNA lineages from coastal China, in whose populations yDNA O1b2-47z later multiplied. “Austronesian-related” yDNA O1b2-47z populations, who, according to Mitsuru Sakitani, expanded from the Lower Yangtze River, played a certain role in the Japanese ethnogenesis. It is possible to connect them to the component in the ethnogenesis of the Japanese, which claimed the descent from Taibo, the ancient Chinese ruler in the Lower Yangtze River Basin:

    ”The 635 CE Liang Shu 梁書 "Book of Liang", which covers history of the Liang dynasty (502–557), records the Buddhist monk Hui Shen's trip to Wa and the legendary Fusang. It refers to Japan as Wa without a 'people' or 'country' suffix, under the "Eastern Barbarians" section, and begins with the Taibo legend:

    The Wa say of themselves that they are posterity of Tàibó. According to custom, the people are all tattooed.”

    The descent of the Japanese from Taibo is not found in the Kojiki, so it is likely that it was only the story from a certain part of the population having migrated to the Japanese archipelago, whom Hui Shen found first.

    In ancient China, indigenous Lower Yangtze populations were known to tattoo their bodies. Today the Yakuza mafia continue to tattoo their bodies in Japan.

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    So, R1b [DF27] look like Asians? Who knew..

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    Why specifically R1b-DF27? R1b-DF27 is a brother clade to R1b-U152 which both descend from ZZ11. It descends from P312 which L21 also descends from. It's either all R1b with a connection not just one branch that formed in Europe.


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    The European lineage, which shares some DNA with the lineage migrating to Central Asia after splitting from the population related to Austronesians, only has a limited distribution, where R1b-DF27 is also found. So the connection should only be limited to R1b-DF27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
    The European lineage, which shares some DNA with the lineage migrating to Central Asia after splitting from the population related to Austronesians, only has a limited distribution, where R1b-DF27 is also found. So the connection should only be limited to R1b-DF27.
    So some R1b-DF27 tribe or man went to Central Asia? Remember that R1b-DF27 like all Western European branches descends from Corded Ware who then became Bell Beaker.

    As mentioned, U152 and DF27 share the same 'father', ZZ11. U152 RISE563, in what is now Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany, belongs to 'Bell Beaker East' and dates to c. 2542 BC (2572-2512 calBCE). He was a migrant, based on isotope analysis, and autosomal DNA plots with Corded Ware and modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians and Mordovians. DF27>ZZ12 is today geographically widespread. The latest ancient yDNA papers all conclude that the P312 remains they tested may have had origins further to the east of Europe. The abstract of the paper by Iñigo Olalde and David Reich, 2017 concludes:

    The arrival of the BBC in Britain can thus be viewed as the western continuation of the massive movement of people that brought the Corded Ware Complex and steppe ancestry into central Europe a few hundred years before.

    Members of the Single Grave Culture buried their dead with stone battle-axes. R-L51, the ancestor of P312>ZZ11, probably originated somewhere in Corded Ware territory.
    https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/ancient-df27

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    I don't think this is related to R1b-DF27. It is related to R1b but much older and further up the tree to R1b-M73 which was found in Botai.

    The Y-chromosome of the male Botai individual (TU45) belongs to the haplogroup R1b (Table 411 S6). However, it falls into neither a predominant European branch R1b-L5165 nor into a R1b-GG400 branch found in Yamnaya individuals. Thus, phylogenetically this Botai individual should belong to the R1b-M73 branch which is frequent in the Eurasian steppe (Figure S9). This branch was also found in Mesolithic samples from Latvia as well as in numerous modern southern Siberian and Central Asian groups.
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/gen...shows-r1b-m73/

    Subclades of R-M73 (R1b1a1a) are rare overall, with most cases being observed in the Caucasus, Siberia, Central Asia, and Mongolia.

    This has nothing to do with R1b-DF27.

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