Has there been genetic studies done on the remains of any Moorish inhabitants from Al-Andalus?

[HelloGuys]

These samples came out after the Olalde sample like i said. The Olalde study had litle or no IA samples from western Iberia so he took some liberties in his conclusions.

I get that for latin americans "the moors in iberia" are an important subject, but now with the information these roman samples provide you can conclude whatever you want, or you can ignore them and wait for the next study.

I hope so, there is 1 in 2019 (Bycroft), 2 studies in 2021 (Flores-Bello and Marina Silva) and the three concludes the same thing about the Islamic period in Iberia.

What we need is a new study focused on Roman Era in Iberia but this time using all the samples from that era, so we will see if they change their conclusion.

If a study comes out and you see it first than me, feel free to send it to update my info, bro

[axel.aleman]

These samples came out after the Olalde sample like i said. The Olalde study had litle or no IA samples from western Iberia so he took some liberties in his conclusions.

I get that for latin americans "the moors in iberia" are an important subject, but now with the information these roman samples provide you can conclude whatever you want, or you can ignore them and wait for the next study.

In the past with Shitcano, Hispanic and Spaghetti trolls this thread would be controversial

[Damião de Góis]

I hope so, there is 1 in 2019 (Bycroft), 2 studies in 2021 (Flores-Bello and Marina Silva) and the three concludes the same thing.

What we need is a new study focused on Roman Era in Iberia but this time using all the samples from that era, so we will see if they change their conclusion.

If a study comes out and you see it first than me, feel free to send it to update my info, bro

Ok man

I don't think it's plausible that the islamic period added an extra (and bigger, more significant) layer of Taforalt to what is being shown in the roman period in those samples, for us to arrive at the modern figure. But alright, you can wait for that study to make up your mind.

[Melkiirs]

I thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period. Some samples came out after the Olalde study and they were very revealing:



These are samples from the late roman empire, and all of them score Taforalt. One of them (Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG) even socres very close to the modern portuguese sample in the bottom. So to say the greatest impact was in the islamic period is incorrect, it was already there before.

North of the Tagus river scores less Iberomasurian than Modern Portuguese and South of the Tagus more during the Roman period. Since the Lusitanian and Gallaecian tribes closely interacted they may have shared Iberomasurian admixture to an extent, although no Roman Gallaecian sample exists to my knowledge. So even if some Iberomasurian admixture was introduced to Galicia during the Roman period, later migrations are necessary to account for the present levels of Iberomasurian in modern Galicians & Portuguese. Of course this could in part just be North-South evening of Roman-Era Iberomasurian and not necessarily new direct North African gene flow.

There is some genetic evidence for significant North African gene flow to Iberia during the Reconquista and in the case of Galicia even during the Suebi Kingdom. Based on this graph it could possibly be South-North migrations within Iberia or directly from North Africa to South Iberia.



https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2019.0471

"Both the dates and the origin of the gene-flow from the North African Mediterranean coast suggest a genetic impact of the Arab expansion in the Iberian Peninsula. The northwest of the Iberian Peninsula shows our oldest estimated date of North African admixture and is consistent with a single pulse of admixture around the time of the early arrival and conquest of Iberia by the Arabs. By contrast, our results suggest that the south of the Iberian Peninsula experienced more recent admixture and perhaps continuous gene-flow. In this case, the admixture is dated to the last periods of the Arab rule in the Peninsula in the second half of the fourteenth century. In 1212, the Christian Kingdoms became allies in the Battle of Navas de Tolosa and conquered all southern territories except the Nasrid Kingdom of Granada, which was conquered at the end of the fifteenth century. The inferred continuous gene-flow suggests that contact between the Arab and southern Iberian populations was not limited to that time period, and the estimated dates represent an upper bound on centuries of admixture (figure 4; electronic supplementary material, figures S5 and S6). Collectively, we can identify at least two different gene-flow events in the Iberian Peninsula for which the inferred dates correlate with Arab rule in the territory: an early concentrated event in the northwest of the Peninsula, and a continuous and more recent event in the south. Moreover, the North African populations that settled in the Peninsula during the Arab conquest may have had different origins (both in time and in geography), which could be indicative of different migration waves (electronic supplementary material, table S3).

In three of the four minor genetic clusters identified for the Iberian Peninsula (Iberian_Peninsula1, Iberian_Peninsula2 and Iberian_South), three-way admixture was detected between European-like (mainly Iberian), North African-like and Basque-like sources. Alternatively, in the case of the other minor cluster, Iberian_NorthWest, only two sources of admixture (North African-like and Iberian-like) were detected. This is in agreement with different admixture events occurring at different moments and in which different populations were involved. The fact that in the northwest of Iberia the admixture does not involved a Basque-like component, while it participated in the admixture events detected in the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, suggests different Iberian populations participated in geographically separated admixture events. This may reflect different waves of the Christian Kingdoms expansion."

[Beowulf]

North of the Tagus river scores less Iberomasurian than Modern Portuguese and South of the Tagus more during the Roman period. Since the Lusitanian and Gallaecian tribes closely interacted they may have shared Iberomasurian admixture to an extent, although no Roman Gallaecian sample exists to my knowledge. So even if some Iberomasurian admixture was introduced to Galicia during the Roman period, later migrations are necessary to account for the present levels of Iberomasurian in modern Galicians & Portuguese. Of course this could in part just be North-South evening of Roman-Era Iberomasurian and not necessarily new direct North African gene flow.

There is some genetic evidence for significant North African gene flow to Iberia during the Reconquista and in the case of Galicia even during the Suebi Kingdom. Based on this graph it could possibly be South-North migrations within Iberia or directly from North Africa to South Iberia.



https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2019.0471

It's me or the map is showing Baleares as being 1/4 Northwestern like? Any explanation for that? I don't remember any known important migration from those areas to here Mallorca for example

[Damião de Góis]

North of the Tagus river scores less Iberomasurian than Modern Portuguese and South of the Tagus more during the Roman period.

It's more like: that one sample from north of the river tagus scores less iberomasurian than modern portuguese and those 3 samples from south of the river. How you proceed to conclude regional differences for the whole country based on those 4 samples is beyond me, especially since there was no political division in that part of the roman empire.

Since the Lusitanian and Gallaecian tribes closely interacted they may have shared Iberomasurian admixture to an extent, although no Roman Gallaecian sample exists to my knowledge. So even if some Iberomasurian admixture was introduced to Galicia during the Roman period, later migrations are necessary to account for the present levels of Iberomasurian in modern Galicians & Portuguese. Of course this could in part just be North-South evening of Roman-Era Iberomasurian and not necessarily new direct North African gene flow.

We would need lusitanian and gallaecian sample from before the roman empire to see that. These samples are most likely be romanized locals after centuries of roman empire. Again, very quick with the generalizations.

There is some genetic evidence for significant North African gene flow to Iberia during the Reconquista and in the case of Galicia even during the Suebi Kingdom. Based on this graph it could possibly be South-North migrations within Iberia or directly from North Africa to South Iberia.



https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2019.0471

I have no idea how you can conclude that. Do we have galician samples from those periods? No we don't. In fact i looked at their methodology and they used samples from the "1000 genomes project" which are modern samples (!).

You are the king of generalizations with little or no data.

[Melkiirs]

You are the king of generalizations with little or no data.

You are correct that this is more or less speculating with limited data, which is is a habit of mine. I don't mean to indicate proof or solid evidence at this point, just tentative possibilities.

It's more like: that one sample from north of the river tagus scores less iberomasurian than modern portuguese and those 3 samples from south of the river. How you proceed to conclude regional differences for the whole country based on those 4 samples is beyond me, especially since there was no political division in that part of the roman empire.

It is uncertain when the Iberomasurian admixture was first acquired in modern day Central Portugal so emphasizing Lusitanian-Gallaeci connection was just supposing if it dated back to Early Roman period. Even if it only came during the Late Roman period Southern Iberia including Southern Lusitania could have been more diverse with a fair number of African origin residents (including one Miroico sample Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman_oAfrica.SG). Northern Lusitania could have had fairly significant contact with both Southern Lusitania and Gallaecia leading to a potential genetic influence.

We would need lusitanian and gallaecian sample from before the roman empire to see that. These samples are most likely be romanized locals after centuries of roman empire. Again, very quick with the generalizations.

It was speculation. As mentioned above we don't know when Iberomasurian admixture first reached Northwest Iberia so it is unclear if interaction between Lusitanians and Gallaeci could be a significant factor in the first acquisition of Iberomasurian there. Conimbriga area was not even occupied by the Lusitanians before Roman conquest but by the Celtic Conii. If it was proven that Iberomasurian admixture was present in Early Roman Central Portugal it might be a plausible circumstance.

I have no idea how you can conclude that. Do we have galician samples from those periods? No we don't. In fact i looked at their methodology and they used samples from the "1000 genomes project" which are modern samples (!).

Even with Modern Iberian samples it is possible to estimate the period of North African gene flow with Globetrotter. The comparatively early concentration of gene flow in Galicia around the period between the end of Roman Iberia (Suebi & Visigothic) and early Al-Andalus suggests it could be in part due to the impact of Roman Era Iberomasurian and not Moorish related. In Andalusia the concentration of post-Roman North African gene flow being shifted towards the late Moorish period suggests an late episode of notable genetic contact with Northwest Africans.

[andrzej]

Cool bro, but you would need at least berbers/northwest africans, modern iberians, levantines and SSA as references base because if not the samples you want to plot does not have a correct shift in the PCA.

Like this (But I have made one for the whole world lol):



Now I marked the IA, Al-Andalus and Roman to see them better:



I admit that it is better to use individuals rather than averages in a PCA, but this was the model I had on hand anyway it serves its purpose

How is it possible for the population of al-Andalus to cluster so close to Lebanese Muslims? The actual settlement of Berbers and Arabs never exceeded significant numbers vs. the native population. It would logistically be impossible, so I don't understand that..

[Jingle Bell]

It's more like: that one sample from north of the river tagus scores less iberomasurian than modern portuguese and those 3 samples from south of the river. How you proceed to conclude regional differences for the whole country based on those 4 samples is beyond me, especially since there was no political division in that part of the roman empire.



We would need lusitanian and gallaecian sample from before the roman empire to see that. These samples are most likely be romanized locals after centuries of roman empire. Again, very quick with the generalizations.



I have no idea how you can conclude that. Do we have galician samples from those periods? No we don't. In fact i looked at their methodology and they used samples from the "1000 genomes project" which are modern samples (!).

You are the king of generalizations with little or no data.

Yeah i agree, we dont have any samples from before Roman occupation to say surely that NA admix was alr present or no in NW Iberia

Conimbriga R10487: 261.5 CE (Roman-Pre Germanic)
Conimbriga R10488: 261.5 CE (Roman-Pre Germanic)




Both samples from Conimbriga are alr Romanized, they also have a visible East Med admix

This changed after the end of the Republic and the establishment of rule by emperors in Rome. After the Roman victory in the Cantabrian Wars in the north of the peninsula (the last rebellion against the Romans in Hispania), Augustus conquered the north of Hispania, annexed the whole peninsula to the Roman Empire and carried out an administrative reorganisation in 19 BC.

Conimbriga are the earliest samples from lusitan/gallaecia region and they are at least 200 years post roman occupation so im kinda sure that despite they for sure looks 80%+ or even i would risk say 90%+ West Iberia IA they arent for sure pure.


Also its consent that NA admix was introduced in Iberia during Early Roman era, and barely varies until late MA (Reconquista), in average NA admix in Conimbriga/MonteDaNora/Miroico samples have overall a similar NA % compared to Al-Andalus (10 - 16 CE samples from Spain) which indicates that few/none new NA admix was rly introduced in Iberia, by the contrary the NA blood remain the same basically



Muslim era samples having a avr of abt 10% Taforalt
Roman Era samples havinga a avr abt 7.6% Taforalt (conimbriga samples are the one with low NA admix)

[Damião de Góis]

Also its consent that NA admix was introduced in Iberia during Early Roman era, and barely varies until late MA (Reconquista), in average NA admix in Conimbriga/MonteDaNora/Miroico samples have overall a similar NA % compared to Al-Andalus (10 - 16 CE samples from Spain) which indicates that few/none new NA admix was rly introduced in Iberia, by the contrary the NA blood remain the same basically

Indeed, the math doesn't add up to conclude that "the greatest impact in the whole iberia was in the islamic period, the EMA."