Buddhist Philosophy

[arcticwolf]

Alright lets get to work first off the 4 Noble Truths.

Four Noble Truths

1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

Noble Eightfold Path

Three Qualities Eightfold Path
Wisdom (panna) Right View
Right Thought
Morality (sila) Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Meditation (samadhi) Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Contemplation

here they are in short, short version

[arcticwolf]

Suffering is a huge word in Buddhism. The word dukkha ranges from the tiny, sublime discomfort mental or physical all the way to the most obvious forms of suffering like a heartbreak, deep depression or physical torture, and everything in between. Dukkha is an ever present fact of life, no one is free from it. So is this pessimistic, not really. Buddha has been compared to a medial doctor, he identified the illness, the cause, the cure and the way that leads to the cure. Buddhism is neither pessimistic nor it is optimistic, it is realistic.

The cause of dukkha is desire, or attachment, or more precisely clinging to that which we consider pleasant or desirable. We are engaged in an unending pursuit after pleasure and constant flight from that which is unpleasant or undesirable, and in the process we ignore most of the reality around us.

All existence is impermanent and impermanence is an occasion for suffering to take place.

So what's the cure? It's the development of wisdom, or in other words extinguishing ignorance in the mind. Ignorance is the failure to see reality the way it really is.

I'll keep my posts fairly short to make room for discussion

[Piparskeggr]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically crude here; Buddhism is bullshit.

If I accidentally cut myself and suffer pain, it is not because of desire, it is because I have caused damaged to skin, flesh, nerves and (possibly) bone...

If I lose my house to foreclosure and suffer hardship, it is not because of desire, it is because my spending has exceeded my means, either due to economic circumstances outside my control, or by having made a bad choice of matching my income to future expenses...

If I grieve for a loved one who has died, it is not because of desire, it is because their loss has created a hole in my heart...

If you do not desire anything, you have no reason to go on breathing.

I live in this world, no amount of meditating or pretending that I am beyond this material realm is going to change that.

If I do not eat, I die.
If I do not drink, I die.
If I do not breath, I die.
Every human is thus.

If you think Buddhism changes that, you are delusional and should seek professional help.

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?

BTW, in college philosophy class I came up with answers that subverted several of the Koans.

[SaxonCeorl]

My Dad has been interested in Therevada Buddhism for 10 years or so, and it's definately had an impact on my general thought processes and awareness of myself in relation to the world.

In my opinion, integrating the "Four Noble Truths" into your mind will go a long way toward allowing you to take much greater control of your thoughts and emotions. I'm sure the "Eight-fold Path" is useful, but I think certain positive adjustments to one's mind are inevitable just by understanding the Four Noble Truths.

One of the most useful teachings of Buddhism is that you can detach from all things that are not self. In fact, I believe it is even taught that there is really no such thing as "self" in the first place (anattā). One of the most acute, wide-spread types of "suffering" comes from identifying with things that are not really a part of our "self," such as religion, career, class, gender, style, etc. The more you identify yourself with all sorts of outside influences that are out of your control, the less control you have over yourself and the more likely you are to experience feelings of anger and sadness when someone or something attacks the thing you are identifying with.

Personally, I operate somewhere in between "unenlightened" identification and attachment to things on the one hand, and comeplete detachment on the other. The knowledge that the things which I identify with are not really a part of me is never too far from my mind. This way, I can enjoy the positive feelings that can come with identification while having a relatively easy time distancing myself from them when necessary to avoid feelings of anger or sadness.

[SaxonCeorl]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically crude here; Buddhism is bullshit.

If I accidentally cut myself and suffer pain, it is not because of desire, it is because I have caused damaged to skin, flesh, nerves and (possibly) bone...

I think the idea is that you desire to no longer feel that physical pain. You fear and detest the pain, and wish for it to go away because it is unpleasant. I think a Buddhist might say that, if you can learn to simply step back and observe the pain, you can train your mind to no longer dread the sensations of pain and, therefore, transcend the suffering. Now, I'm not saying that's anywhere close to being easy, but I think it's what a Buddhist might say.

If I lose my house to foreclosure and suffer hardship, it is not because of desire, it is because my spending has exceeded my means, either due to economic circumstances outside my control, or by having made a bad choice of matching my income to future expenses...

No, you would not be suffering because you lost your house; you might be suffering because you desire to have not lost your house, and you desire to not be experiencing whatever hardships you are going through.

If I grieve for a loved one who has died, it is not because of desire, it is because their loss has created a hole in my heart...

It's because you desire for them to still be alive. Notice the theme here?

If you do not desire anything, you have no reason to go on breathing.

I think a Buddhist would just observe themselves living and continue to do so until they die. I don't think you have to avoid "doing things" and enjoying things; I think the idea is just that it can be useful to maintain awareness of the lack of true attachment between ourselves and that which we enjoy, in order to avoid feelings of "suffering."

I live in this world, no amount of meditating or pretending that I am beyond this material realm is going to change that.

If I do not eat, I die.
If I do not drink, I die.
If I do not breath, I die.
Every human is thus.

I agree! I don't see any discrepancy here, though.

If you think Buddhism changes that, you are delusional and should seek professional help.

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?

When Buddhist thinking started to come to the Western world, a lot of its more mystical, dramatic sects came to the forefront, notably Zen. Think Phil Jackson, incense sticks, and the like. I would agree that these "mystical" forms of Buddhism are BS. The more conservative, traditional ideas, though, are just practical, straightforward ideas about how to be in better control of your mind.

[arcticwolf]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically crude here; Buddhism is bullshit.

If I accidentally cut myself and suffer pain, it is not because of desire, it is because I have caused damaged to skin, flesh, nerves and (possibly) bone...

If I lose my house to foreclosure and suffer hardship, it is not because of desire, it is because my spending has exceeded my means, either due to economic circumstances outside my control, or by having made a bad choice of matching my income to future expenses...

If I grieve for a loved one who has died, it is not because of desire, it is because their loss has created a hole in my heart...

If you do not desire anything, you have no reason to go on breathing.

I live in this world, no amount of meditating or pretending that I am beyond this material realm is going to change that.

If I do not eat, I die.
If I do not drink, I die.
If I do not breath, I die.
Every human is thus.

If you think Buddhism changes that, you are delusional and should seek professional help.

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?

BTW, in college philosophy class I came up with answers that subverted several of the Koans.

Physical pain is not the same as suffering. While physical pain is unavoidable suffering is optional. Desire is the root but it's the act of clinging to something that causes the suffering when attachment breaks as it must at some point. Desire causes attachment and clinging.

Buddhism is not science, it is not industry, so we have to compare it with other spiritual paths. Buddhism sets one free, makes one responsible for ones plight, gives total control over ones destiny to an individual. It's one's own efforts that lead to release from the bondage of ignorance. In Buddhism there is no one to blame, no one to beg for favors or salvation, no one to save us, all is in the hands of an individual. It's scary at first, it's so much more comforting to know that someone has a plan and will save us from it all but that's just a dream. Buddhism is all about coming to grips with reality.

[Phil75231]

I think the point Saxon's trying to get across (correct me if I'm wrong), is that our minds FAR too often confuse desire/love with possessiveness - especially regarding this part that he said

One of the most acute, wide-spread types of "suffering" comes from identifying with things that are not really a part of our "self," such as religion, career, class, gender, style, etc. The more you identify yourself with all sorts of outside influences that are out of your control, the less control you have over yourself and the more likely you are to experience feelings of anger and sadness when someone or something attacks the thing you are identifying with.

.

I agree with this 100%, though I'm not a Buddhist. In fact, I didn't know anything about Buddhism at all when I figured this out. Sure, you'll be sad when someone dies. Sure it's going to be because you miss their presence in your life (my own mom died back in August and I still wish she were around).

The point is that we accept that - put bluntly - Shit Happens! Nothing is permanent. Things can and will happen to people, places, things, phenomena we deeply care about. Sure, enjoy and appreciate them, but DO NOT become attached to them (i.e. possessive of them). That is what sets us up for nasty falls, spiritually and psychologically speaking.

[Piparskeggr]

Physical pain is not the same as suffering. While physical pain is unavoidable suffering is optional. Desire is the root but it's the act of clinging to something that causes the suffering when attachment breaks as it must at some point. Desire causes attachment and clinging.

Buddhism is not science, it is not industry, so we have to compare it with other spiritual paths. Buddhism sets one free, makes one responsible for ones plight, gives total control over ones destiny to an individual. It's one's own efforts that lead to release from the bondage of ignorance. In Buddhism there is no one to blame, no one to beg for favors or salvation, no one to save us, all is in the hands of an individual. It's scary at first, it's so much more comforting to know that someone has a plan and will save us from it all but that's just a dream. Buddhism is all about coming to grips with reality.

Pain and suffering, physical and mental...2 sides of the same coin; neither is avoidable, both are natural to the human condition. Everyone feels pain, everyone suffers, to think otherwise to to avoid the responsibility of being fully human.

Obsession is clinging (I have mild Obsessive-Compulsive impulses), damaging.

Desire is natural, attachment is natural...if a parent is not attached to their child, how will the child survive?

As for who is responsible for my life...my dad ( a very devout Roman Catholic) always told me to look in the mirror for who is responsible for my life.

Seems like Buddhism contains no real earth shattering truth, no real freedom path...as compared to any other spirituality or philosophy.

Color me, unconvinced, especially in the milieu of a European mindset.

[beaver]

Personally, I would have answered "time". It seems to qualify metaphorically for all the descriptions - unless the answer is self-referential (given the question asks about the past,present, and future). I wonder if that could be an answer. If not, I'll just suffer.

(I'm not intending to be a smart-ass. If I offended anyone, I apologize for it).

Maybe you are just not a brahman?

I will try to explain the situation:

Brahmans were sitting around the fire at night

Yagnavalkya appeared from the forest and asked permission to join

Gargi (woman!!!) was also brahman and simultaneously something like a secretary

Further brahmans were trying to clear up if Yagnavalkya can take a place about the fire?

So, they asked very complicated questions (through Gargi) and he answered!

Finally he took the permission to sit along with other brahmans

[arcticwolf]

Pain and suffering, physical and mental...2 sides of the same coin; neither is avoidable, both are natural to the human condition. Everyone feels pain, everyone suffers, to think otherwise to to avoid the responsibility of being fully human.

That is not true, pain is unavoidable, but suffering is absolutely avoidable. You can love, be considerate and responsible and have no attachment whatsoever even to the closest ones to you. As a matter of fact your love will be purer, you actions will be wiser if you don't have any attachments.

Obsession is clinging (I have mild Obsessive-Compulsive impulses), damaging.

Desire is natural, attachment is natural...if a parent is not attached to their child, how will the child survive?

Again the same principle. It is natural to the untrained mind who has not awaken yet. Mind that is calm, clear and collected can see and do everything as well, as a matter of the fact better than not awaken mind can. Just to put you doubts to rest let me tell you this, Buddhist ethics is superior to any other ethical system I know. I won't discuss it right here at this time but I promise you it will come up in this thread in due time. Just hang in here.

As for who is responsible for my life...my dad ( a very devout Roman Catholic) always told me to look in the mirror for who is responsible for my life.

Seems like Buddhism contains no real earth shattering truth, no real freedom path...as compared to any other spirituality or philosophy.

Color me, unconvinced, especially in the milieu of a European mindset.

We will talk about the path shortly, all 8 aspects of it and more.

No one will try to convince you, and you are more than welcome to make your points. You are being more than helpful, please point out all the inconsistencies you can think of. Your input is very valuable and appreciated. Here are the words of Buddha himself: "Question everything, even the things I said, don't take anything on faith, but confirm it to be the truth" As you can see you do exactly what Buddha himself encouraged. Please keep it coming.