Highest-ranked countries in the 2021 Human Development Index outside of Europe

[Lioncourt]

I was referring more to Lioncourt's inference that being an EU member automatically means that a country is more prosperous and developed than anywhere outside the West.

That's pretty much true though, unless you exclude Japan and South Korea from the west.

[Tooting Carmen]

That's pretty much true though, unless you exclude Japan and South Korea from the west.

They aren't Western - certainly not in a racial or cultural sense, at any rate. And it seems there is more than a little butthurt reaction on your part that non-Western countries besides those two are ranked higher than Bulgaria.

[Lioncourt]

They aren't Western - certainly not in a racial or cultural sense, at any rate. And it seems there is more than a little butthurt reaction on your part that non-Western countries besides those two are ranked higher than Bulgaria.

Japan, South Korea and Israel I count as western politically, but I can agree they are too different from Europe-Canada-USA-Australia realm.

Rest what we have is Arab states (rich because of oil but awful in human rights), three Latin Americans countries (Chile and Argentina are corrupt with high crime rates, Uruguay is perhaps better), Turkey which I already mentioned, and Russia-Belarus-Kazakhstan realm (both poorer, dictatorship states with awful human rights).

Do you seriously think it's better to live there than in Bulgaria or Romania?

[Tooting Carmen]

Japan, South Korea and Israel I count as western politically, but I can agree they are too different from Europe-Canada-USA-Australia realm.

Rest what we have is Arab states (rich because of oil but awful in human rights), three Latin Americans countries (Chile and Argentina are corrupt with high crime rates, Uruguay is perhaps better), Turkey which I already mentioned, and Russia-Belarus-Kazakhstan realm (both poorer, dictatorship states with awful human rights).

Do you seriously think it's better to live there than in Bulgaria or Romania?

I already stated that the HDI is extremely imperfect and certainly it doesn't look at human rights and democracy. For the latter, look up Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch or Freedom House. In fact, Freedom House's annual Freedom In The World report even ranks several African countries as being better for democracy and human rights than the Gulf Arab countries and much of the former USSR, however bad their economies are.

As for Chile and Argentina, the two are even quite different from each other: Chile is better-governed and has somewhat less corruption and possibly crime than Argentina, and while both countries are still not quite Western Europe/North America tier, they certainly are comparable to much of Eastern Europe and it should not be regarded as far-fetched to state as much.

[Lioncourt]

Speaking of crime, actually Eastern Europe is one of the safest places - there was an experiment in Tallinn, Riga and Vilnus where a woman walked almost naked at night in every neighborhood in the cities and nobody touched her. I doubt that will be true for London, Berlin or Paris.

[Tooting Carmen]

Speaking of crime, actually Eastern Europe is one of the safest places - there was an experiment in Tallinn, Riga and Vilnus where a woman walked almost naked at night in every neighborhood in the cities and nobody touched her. I doubt that will be true for London, Berlin or Paris.

I don't deny that, and for sure there is indeed more to life than money (or education or healthcare). Nevertheless, while it is true that all of Europe is relatively prosperous by global standards, all the same there is a clear difference between e.g. Finland and Albania.

[Lioncourt]

I don't deny that, and for sure there is indeed more to life than money (or education or healthcare). Nevertheless, while it is true that all of Europe is relatively prosperous by global standards, all the same there is a clear difference between e.g. Finland and Albania.

Difference between European countries are undeniable, but also shortening in recent years. Western Europe is becoming worse (mostly because of all the illegal immigration) and Eastern Europe better.

[Tooting Carmen]

Difference between European countries are undeniable, but also shortening in recent years. Western Europe is becoming worse (mostly because of all the illegal immigration) and Eastern Europe better.

The argument that Western Europe is declining mostly if not entirely due to immigration is very flimsy and half-baked itself. If you take the UK for example, based on that argument Wales and Northern Ireland should be better-off than London, when of course it is very much the other way round.

[Lioncourt]

The argument that Western Europe is declining mostly if not entirely due to immigration is very flimsy and half-baked itself. If you take the UK for example, based on that argument Wales and Northern Ireland should be better-off than London, when of course it is very much the other way round.

London has the economic power and resources, but as Wales and Northern Ireland are not poor themselves, many people would choose to live there, as it is probably calmer and healthier.

In the very same manner, Sofia is twice better in terms of salaries than rest of Bulgaria, but if a person earns enough outside of it, they most likely won't live there as it is quite stressful.

[Tooting Carmen]

London has the economic power and resources, but as Wales and Northern Ireland are not poor themselves, many people would choose to live there, as it is probably calmer and healthier.

Well yes and no. Wales may look idyllic, relaxed and pretty in many places - hence why many people especially Londoners do move here to retire - but at the end of the day, as far as shops, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, schools, hospitals, public transport and doubtless a great deal of other things are concerned, London is far superior, and I have no problem admitting as much, even as someone who happily lives in South Wales. Besides, many towns and villages in the Valleys and the North Wales coast are at least equally shitty as the worst inner-city areas of London, even without anything like the levels of ethnic diversity of the latter.

As for Northern Ireland, I visited it five years ago, and while some of it is quite nice and thriving, it still has not fully recovered from its violent sectarian past. Many areas of West Belfast in particular are extraordinarily run-down, full of murals glorifying both Unionist and Republican terrorists, and they still have the Orwellian-named "peace walls".

In the very same manner, Sofia is twice better in terms of salaries than rest of Bulgaria, but if a person earns enough outside of it, they most likely won't live there as it is quite stressful.

But for reasons that mostly have little to do with mass immigration, right?