Absent the mass migrations of Iberians, Italians and Poles to France...

[Septentrion]

Did Italian migrants to France come mainly from the south? because bordering regions of northern Italy can be quite fair haired and skinned, infact i think some parts of northern Italy have a higher rate of blonde hair than some parts of southern France. I think Spanish descended French are mainly in the south coast and Paris, most French i have seen in Lyon, Lille look not very Spanish. Polish migration barely changed the look of people i think and if anything made people from northern parts of France even lighter haired than they would have looked previously. I don't think migration has altered the basic phenotypes of France that much, maybe made the country slightly more brunet on the whole but i would argue that a 1/4 Spanish or Italian person would have French traits dominating.

What are you talking about? Northern Italy is decidedly the lightest-haired region of Italy, but it isn't lighter than Southern France. The people who "darkened" the French population of European descent are the Portuguese, Spaniards and of course Italian immigrants. They are from all over Italy not necessarily the south. Northern Italy isn't Scandinavia by the way, the mean for blondness is approximately 11%. Southern France scores higher. Northern Italy is more comparable to Portugal.

[coolfrenchguy]

there was also a wave of economic immigrants in the 80's while yugoslavia was united,mostly bosno-serbs,serbs and croats, i have been at school with kids like this, they were called "yougo" a lot of named ending with "ic" like jomanovic for ex,a few greeks , i was very friend with a greek in my elementary school, and with a very chubby spaniard,named carlos, i was at school from the end of the 70's to the end of 1990's

[Oliver109]

there was also a wave of economic immigrants in the 80's while yugoslavia was united,mostly bosno-serbs,serbs and croats, i have been at school with kids like this, they were called "yougo" a lot of named ending with "ic" like jomanovic for ex,a few greeks , i was very friend with a greek in my elementary school, and with a very chubby spaniard,named carlos, i was at school from the end of the 70's to the end of 1990's

Did they settle in rural France a lot? many northern French can look quite Balkan

[coolfrenchguy]

Did they settle in rural France a lot? many northern French can look quite Balkan

frankly i don't know it's a hard and tricky question,but they were more into manual hard works,like building works,walls painting etc ,like the poles in UK
the famous "polish plumber"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_plumber

[Melkiirs]

What are you talking about? Northern Italy is decidedly the lightest-haired region of Italy, but it isn't lighter than Southern France. The people who "darkened" the French population of European descent are the Portuguese, Spaniards and of course Italian immigrants. They are from all over Italy not necessarily the south. Northern Italy isn't Scandinavia by the way, the mean for blondness is approximately 11%. Southern France scores higher. Northern Italy is more comparable to Portugal.

Light brown Fischer #8 is not blond and has no yellowish or greyish aspect unless photobleached. Your figures clearly include this shade and you are really referring to just light hair. Tamagnini with A Pigmentação dos Portugueses found that 2.07% of adult Portuguese (don’t know the age distribution) show real blondism Fischer #9-26 which corresponds to any yellowish or greyish aspect to hair color. An 1960s investigation in Lazio found 2.36% Fischer-Saller A-L (https://books.google.com/books?id=kO...2010,32%206%22) which corresponds to true blond unlike M-O which was considered light chestnut by the study. Not only Northern Italy but possibly also Upper Central Italy (Tuscany, Umbria, Marche) would be blonder than Portugal at large if Lazio (Lower Central Italy) is really roughly comparable.

[Septentrion]

Light brown Fischer #8 is not blond and has no yellowish or greyish aspect unless photobleached. Your figures clearly includes this shade and you are really referring to just light hair. Tamagnini with A Pigmentação dos Portugueses found that 2.07% of adult Portuguese (don’t know the age distribution) show real blondism Fischer #9-26 which corresponds to any yellowish or greyish aspect to hair color. An 1960s investigation in Lazio found 2.36% Fischer-Saller A-L (https://books.google.com/books?id=kO...2010,32%206%22) which corresponds to true blond unlike M-O which was considered light chestnut by the study. Not only Northern Italy but possibly also Upper Central Italy (Tuscany, Umbria, Marche) would be blonder than Portugal at large if Lazio (Lower Central Italy) is really roughly comparable.

Again light brown is not blond according to who? In many populations, light brown hair is counted as blond as it could be the only shade of light hair found there. At other instances, light brown is confused with dark blond hair. Isn't it? Blond hair has many variations just as much as brown hair does. The Portuguese national average for blond and blondish hair is 11%! This in comparison to that of Central Italian regions, Tuscany ( 9.2% ), Umbria ( 9% ), Marche ( 7.5% ). It's pretty clear. According to GWAS Study of pigmentation in four European countries ( 2012 ) which were Ireland, Italy, Poland and Portugal. The conclusion was that the Portuguese as a whole are lighter-haired and surprisingly ( to me ) fairer - skinned than the Italians. In skin tone, the Portuguese were much closer to the Polish than they were to their Mediterranean brethren ( the Italians!). Enough said.

[Septentrion]

Sardinia has the lowest frequency for blondness (1.7%!) in Italy. The frequency is even lower than any region of Portugal. The least blond regions of Portugal goes as low as 5% for blond hair.

[Melkiirs]

Again light brown is not blond according to who? In many populations, light brown hair is counted as blond as it could be the only shade of light hair found there. At other instances, light brown is confused with dark blond hair. Isn't it? Blond hair has many variations just as much as brown hair does. The Portuguese national average for blond and blondish hair is 11%! This in comparison to that of Central Italian regions, Tuscany ( 9.2% ), Umbria ( 9% ), Marche ( 7.5% ). It's pretty clear. According to GWAS Study of pigmentation in four European countries ( 2012 ) which were Ireland, Italy, Poland and Portugal. The conclusion was that the Portuguese as a whole are lighter-haired and surprisingly ( to me ) fairer - skinned than the Italians. In skin tone, the Portuguese were much closer to the Polish than they were to their Mediterranean brethren ( the Italians!).

Actually Eusebio Tamagnini claimed in his reports based on multiple sources (not just the scaled data of 11,601 adults from across Portgual which were only 2.07% true blond versus light brown) that about 11% of Portuguese adults had true blond hair excluding light brownish shades (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ethn...-t65.html#p263). This is obviously ludicrous because that would make Portuguese at the level of some Central Europeans in blondism (based on Fischer #9-26 8.5% of adults from Volhynia under Pöch and 16.5% of Alsatian adults under Pfitzner were found blond). Southern European anthropological observers can't really automatically be trusted to conduct surveys on their populations due to often significantly different perspectives on the delineation of light features. Most pigmentation scales are of German origin and none are of Southern European origin. Southern Europe was essentially on the anthropological periphery during the late 19th to early 20th centuries so unless German standards are imposed through standard scales extra scrutiny must be applied.

Regarding Fischer #8 this is what was written about Fischer's determination:

"This color was sent by FISCHER to experienced researchers in northern and southern countries with the question of what the color should be called. In Italy she was described as blonde, but also in England (brown, borderline blonde) and in Sweden she was considered at the most dark blonde."

https://books.google.com/books?id=c3...lblond&f=false

The ultimate determination was "fast dunkelblond" or near dark blond. If Swedes are unwilling to come to some agreement regarding a specific shade being at least fairish or råttfärgat it can't fairly be considered blondish universally. #9-26 corresponds to what is at least råttfärgat in Sweden.



Regarding the 2012 GWAS pigmentation study many Southern Italians attend Sapienza University of Rome so the results are not necessarily representative for native Lazians. Clear genetic outliers were excluded (one Irish with Russian ancestry, and two Portuguese with Indian and African ancestry) but that does not mean there was no variation due to regional origin. If you look at the box plots there were quite a few outlier cases in the Italian sample with much lighter hair pigmentation than median which could be indicative of regional variation. There is no reason to indicate this to have been as much a factor for students at the University of Porto.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23118974/

All this understood at least Northern Italy could likely be blonder than Portuguese on average considering the Lazio study finding 2.36% Fischer-Saller A-L in adults at least as light a range as Fischer #9-26.

[Septentrion]

Actually Eusebio Tamagnini claimed in his reports based on multiple sources (not just the scaled data of 11,601 adults from across Portgual which were only 2.07% true blond versus light brown) that about 11% of Portuguese adults had true blond hair excluding light brownish shades (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ethn...-t65.html#p263). This is obviously ludicrous because that would make Portuguese at the level of some Central Europeans in blondism (based on Fischer #9-26 8.5% of adults from Volhynia under Pöch and 16.5% of Alsatian adults under Pfitzner were found blond). Southern European anthropological observers can't really automatically be trusted to conduct surveys on their populations due to often significantly different perspectives on the delineation of light features. Most pigmentation scales are of German origin and none are of Southern European origin. Southern Europe was essentially on the anthropological periphery during the late 19th to early 20th centuries so unless German standards are imposed through standard scales extra scrutiny must be applied.

Regarding Fischer #8 this is what was written about Fischer's determination:

https://books.google.com/books?id=c3...lblond&f=false

The ultimate determination was "fast dunkelblond" or near dark blond. If Swedes are unwilling to come to some agreement regarding a specific shade being at least fairish or råttfärgat it can't fairly be considered blondish universally. #9-26 corresponds to what is at least råttfärgat in Sweden.



Regarding the 2012 GWAS pigmentation study many Southern Italians attend Sapienza University of Rome so the results are not necessarily representative for native Lazians. Clear genetic outliers were excluded (one Irish with Russian ancestry, and two Portuguese with Indian and African ancestry) but that does not mean there was no variation due to regional origin. If you look at the box plots there were quite a few outlier cases in the Italian sample with much lighter hair pigmentation than median which could be indicative of regional variation. There is no reason to indicate this to have been as much a factor for students at the University of Porto.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23118974/

All this understood at least Northern Italy could likely be blonder than Portuguese on average considering the Lazio study finding 2.36% Fischer-Saller A-L in adults at least as light a range as Fischer #9-26.

False! Who do you think you are talking to? With all your clear bias against the Portuguese. Rome is the capital city of Italy. The city is not exclusive to Southern Italians! Italians from all over Italy come to live, work and study in Rome. The same goes for all capital cities in Europe. Perhaps since you are a Yankee, you could very be ignorant. The general picture is that the Portuguese are lighter-haired and lighter-skinned than the Italians, but they are darker-eyed. Italians as a whole are darker than most European groups anyway. What’s your point?
This pigmentation is pretty recent study done 2012. Northern Italy is not way blonder-haired than Northern Portugal. No concrete proof of it. Other areas of Sardinia goes as low as 1.7% for blonde hair. This is the lowest in the entire Western Europe! No region of Portugal goes below 5% for blond hair. There is also a higher frequency of black hair in Italy than in Iberia as a whole. In the “antropologia física dos Portugueses”, the mean percentage for blond hair in Portugal is 20%. This most likely includes very light brown shades.

[Septentrion]

The Basques are blonder-haired than Northern Italians. They’re closer to the French average than they’d be to Italians.