are brazilians going to replace portuguese natives by the end of the 21st century?

[irinashayk]

I´ve read about portugal's low fertility and their old and aging population. And since portuguese people are not interested in making babies the only solution is immigration. Apparently brazilians are moving in droves to Portugal. Wonder how that reverse colonization is gonna turn out to Portuguese people.

[Jingle Bell]

1 Place: Just 4% - 6% of Portugal population is made of Brazilians.
2 Place: The vast majority of that Brazilians are of the Middle-Upper class, mostly Whites with predominant Portuguese ancestry (Colonial & Recent)
3 Place: Brazilians are one of the most economical-friendly imigrants in Portugal, most bcs is mainly the Upper class that have conditions to go to Europe and made a genealogy to prove his Portuguese passaport.
4 Place: The numbers actually improved a lot during 2015 - 2020 (to 85.000 - 183.993) but they stopped growing since 2021 (209.558 - today estimative is abt just 215.000 - 220.00) so no, is not going to happen such a "reverse colonization"
5 Place: While Brazilians have Portuguese blood and also are stable in numbers of imigration, Africans from Luso-speakers countries are imigrating in mass with numbers just exploding year by year, just Angolans imigrated in a scale 50% more since and still growing, but they usually go to big cities like Lisboa/Porto while brazilians are more over all parts of Portugal, anyway i dont think Portugal will be colonized, it will be *In my opnion) still at least 80% Portuguese in next years but who knows.

Add: But Portuguese society its having problem with that imigrants, most bcs a part of brazilians its rly rly disrespectful (i say by personal experience) and not have the minimal education to act polite and respect the socio-cultural ambient of Portugal, so with that comes a wave of discrimination, i understand the portugueses side, but i also feel sad by the other parts of brazilian that are actually gentlemans and respect the country, our nation needs education now.

[Damião de Góis]

Add: But Portuguese society its having problem with that imigrants, most bcs a part of brazilians its rly rly disrespectful (i say by personal experience) and not have the minimal education to act polite and respect the socio-cultural ambient of Portugal, so with that comes a wave of discrimination, i understand the portugueses side, but i also feel sad by the other parts of brazilian that are actually gentlemans and respect the country, our nation needs education now.

Despite what people might think, from what i write in the forum sometimes about brazilians, i have actually got on well with every brazilian i've met here. For the most part they are integrated well. Sometimes we read aboiut violent crime news and it's usually brazilians but considering their numbers i would say it's a tiny minority.

That being said, i think immigration is out of control and the numbers are huge. Another community that is growing a lot is indians/pakistanis/nepalis.

[sacha]

That being said, i think immigration is out of control and the numbers are huge. Another community that is growing a lot is indians/pakistanis/nepalis.

Would you say this is noticeable in day-to-day life? I have been reading grim things about Portuguese migration out of Portugal, kind of reminds me of the Lebanese and their population change, though not as drastic for sure. A few years ago I heard a lot about SAs (mostly Indians) going to Portugal and using it as a 'stepping stone' to reach the UK, but I haven't come across much about how big these communities are/if they are staying for longer now.

[Damião de Góis]

Would you say this is noticeable in day-to-day life? I have been reading grim things about Portuguese migration out of Portugal, kind of reminds me of the Lebanese and their population change, though not as drastic for sure. A few years ago I heard a lot about SAs (mostly Indians) going to Portugal and using it as a 'stepping stone' to reach the UK, but I haven't come across much about how big these communities are/if they are staying for longer now.

In Lisbon and surroundings yeah it's very noticeable. You can go out and only hear foreign accents and languages. It's also a small city for a capital, with 504k people. According to statistics from 2021 there are 108k foreign born citizens which makes around 20%. Might not seem a lot but together with tourists and other immigrants trom the metro area, it's a lot and makes the city feel foreign.

SAs seem to be everywhere in Europe now, not just here.

[Jingle Bell]

Despite what people might think, from what i write in the forum sometimes about brazilians, i have actually got on well with every brazilian i've met here. For the most part they are integrated well. Sometimes we read aboiut violent crime news and it's usually brazilians but considering their numbers i would say it's a tiny minority.

That being said, i think immigration is out of control and the numbers are huge. Another community that is growing a lot is indians/pakistanis/nepalis.

Sim eu entendo, o problema é que Portugal precisa de mão de obra jovem (e principalmente qualificada), na verdade a Europa como um todo, eu acredito que seria mais interessante ao país atrair portugueses que moram no exterior ( segundo o Atlas da Emigração está na casa dos 1,5M - 2M de portugueses no exterior) de volta à Portugal do que atrair estrangeiros (muitas das vezes, incompativeis com a cultura lusitana) á ir em massa ao país, que poucas vezes possuem qualificação e não é coincidencia a criminalidade está crescendo em Portugal e na Europa como todo, eu acho que até certo ponto imigrantes brasileiros (principalmente os jus-sanguini) beneficiais á Portugal, mas acredito que uma hora vai passar do limite, em primeiro lugar deveria ser conservada a integridade de indentidade e cultura portuguesa, já que ela não precisa ser sacrificada em prol da economia, um não anula o outro.
O governo tem algum projeto para minimizar a imigração?

[Etelfrido]

1 Place: Just 4% - 6% of Portugal population is made of Brazilians.
2 Place: The vast majority of that Brazilians are of the Middle-Upper class, mostly Whites with predominant Portuguese ancestry (Colonial & Recent)
3 Place: Brazilians are one of the most economical-friendly imigrants in Portugal, most bcs is mainly the Upper class that have conditions to go to Europe and made a genealogy to prove his Portuguese passaport.
4 Place: The numbers actually improved a lot during 2015 - 2020 (to 85.000 - 183.993) but they stopped growing since 2021 (209.558 - today estimative is abt just 215.000 - 220.00) so no, is not going to happen such a "reverse colonization"
5 Place: While Brazilians have Portuguese blood and also are stable in numbers of imigration, Africans from Luso-speakers countries are imigrating in mass with numbers just exploding year by year, just Angolans imigrated in a scale 50% more since and still growing, but they usually go to big cities like Lisboa/Porto while brazilians are more over all parts of Portugal, anyway i dont think Portugal will be colonized, it will be *In my opnion) still at least 80% Portuguese in next years but who knows.

Add: But Portuguese society its having problem with that imigrants, most bcs a part of brazilians its rly rly disrespectful (i say by personal experience) and not have the minimal education to act polite and respect the socio-cultural ambient of Portugal, so with that comes a wave of discrimination, i understand the portugueses side, but i also feel sad by the other parts of brazilian that are actually gentlemans and respect the country, our nation needs education now.

I haven't seen any study on the part in bold but nevertheless I'm not sure about it, I've seen some videos of Brazilians there who definitely were from the lower class and obtaining the Portuguese citizenship by jus sanguinis isn't that easy because if I recall correctly one had to have at least one grandparent who was born in Portugal (that was case at least until recently) and that doesn't apply to the vast majority of Brazilians, who tended to go there with a work visa I think.

[Etelfrido]

In Lisbon and surroundings yeah it's very noticeable. You can go out and only hear foreign accents and languages. It's also a small city for a capital, with 504k people. According to statistics from 2021 there are 108k foreign born citizens which makes around 20%. Might not seem a lot but together with tourists and other immigrants trom the metro area, it's a lot and makes the city feel foreign.

That's understandable given that there's distrust among Brazilians ourselves, not to mention interregional feuds.

I've once asked Sebastianus a question concerning the origin of Brazilians in Portugal and if my memory serves right he said many were from Minas Gerais and I believe from the Northeast too, has that been your impression as well?

[Jingle Bell]

I haven't seen any study on the part in bold but nevertheless I'm not sure about it, I've seen some videos of Brazilians there who definitely were from the lower class and obtaining the Portuguese citizenship by jus sanguinis isn't that easy because if I recall correctly one had to have at least one grandparent who was born in Portugal (that was case at least until recently) and that doesn't apply to the vast majority of Brazilians, who tended to go there with a work visa I think.

"A remuneração base média total dos brasileiros no país é de € 868 (R$ 4,5 mil), cem euros acima do salário mínimo nacional."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9&opi=89978449

4,5K per month its for sure above the mensal rent of the average brazilian:

"A renda média habitual real de R$ 2.924, registrada no segundo trimestre de 2023, pela primeira vez supera os níveis observados no mesmo trimestre de 2019 (R$ 2.904), imediatamente anterior à pandemia."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p&opi=89978449

4,5K Its more or less class C, basically Medium-High class, or even high Class if u compare to the poorest states like Maranhão.
Also most low-class habitants dont have such time and money to make their genealogical tree go back that far or contract someone to do that, and if they do, they would still have to pass throught the all judicial process which cust years and money, thats why, for sure have Medium or Low class persons that imigrate to portugal, but that dont mean they are the majority of at least a the bulk of the diaspora.

[Etelfrido]

"A remuneração base média total dos brasileiros no país é de € 868 (R$ 4,5 mil), cem euros acima do salário mínimo nacional."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9&opi=89978449

4,5K per month its for sure above the mensal rent of the average brazilian:

"A renda média habitual real de R$ 2.924, registrada no segundo trimestre de 2023, pela primeira vez supera os níveis observados no mesmo trimestre de 2019 (R$ 2.904), imediatamente anterior à pandemia."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p&opi=89978449

4,5K Its more or less class C, basically Medium-High class, or even high Class if u compare to the poorest states like Maranhão.
Also most low-class habitants dont have such time and money to make their genealogical tree go back that far or contract someone to do that, and if they do, they would still have to pass throught the all judicial process which cust years and money, thats why, for sure have Medium or Low class persons that imigrate to portugal, but that dont mean they are the majority of at least a the bulk of the diaspora.

I don't think one take their wages in Portugal to determine their social class in Brazil though, they'll obviously be above the Brazilian average due to the exchange rate but that doesn't mean much because the cost of living in Portugal is much higher than here.