Examples in the Old World where a more southern group is fairer than a more northern group

[Septentrion]

[QUOTE=Tooting Carmen;7917357]

Really? I thought blondism in England was more of an East-West cline, regardless of class.

Yes and no. The East-West cline in England is less thorough than the North-South cline in continental Europe outside of Scandinavia. In England, there is more of an equilibrium so to speak.

[Septentrion]

[QUOTE=Milkaner;7917376]

The point is there is striking or distinctive red hair and red-blond hair which is often associated with occasional penetration in heterozygotes. If someone has just one copy of R160W which is less penetrant (also more concentrated in typical Germanic peoples than Insular Celts) and is also predisposed to be very fair haired their chances of showing rufosity will be greater. If you have two copies of the most penetrant variant R151C you will likely have very red hair even if you predisposed to darker hair. This is quite clear based on HIrisPlex predictions.

When we start talking about reddish-blond hair especially in children who are more likely to present with recessive traits like rufosity there is definitely significant overlap between Scandinavians and the British Isles.

Red or reddish hair is also more linked to truly white skin (lacking the ability to tan) than with any other hair colour. The Insular Celts have a higher genetic input for red or reddish regardless of definition than any other population (Germanics included). In the same way, Scandinavians have for pure blonde hair. The reason for this are linked to adaptation to climate over a long period of time.

[Septentrion]

Latvians and some Lithuanians are more brunet than Northern Germans and Russians according to Bertil Lundman.

The map is per 1940 so the area of what is now Northern Poland was inhabited by ethnic Germans.

I'm afraid you are taking too much. Let us break up these groups, deal with them separately and not foolishly generalize them in that manner.

i)The Latvians are even blonder-haired than Northern Germans, thus comparable to the Scandinavians. They are lighter eyed as well.
ii) The Lithuanians approximate Northern Germans in blondness but are bluer and lighter-eyed.
iii) The Northern Poles are less frequently blond-haired than the Northern Germans, nevertheless they are not less light-eyed. Poles as a whole are not darker-haired than Germans (N.B., the Nazis kidnapped thousands of blond Polish children to raise them as Germans) and they are actually slightly lighter-eyed.
iv) Russians as a whole are darker-haired than the Germans, despite having a numerically larger population of blondes than Germany or any other European nation. Therefore, obviously they'd be darker than the Northern Germans who are the blondest of Germans. However, when it comes to North-West Russians, is a different story. They are much blonder-haired and lighter-eyed than the blondest of Germans. North-West Russians are more comparable to Finnic-speaking populations of Russia, Eastern Finnish, Estonians and Swedish-Finns.

[Septentrion]

They are definitely lighter than Lithuanians and northern Poles

I'd say that as a whole the Dutch being predominantly light-haired and light-eyed. This puts them as the blondest-haired in Western Europe. However they are not lighter than the Lithuanians and are only slightly lighter-haired than Poles. In eye colour, they are similar to the Poles.
Europe's blondest nations :
i) Iceland
ii) Denmark
iii) Finland
iv) Sweden
v) Norway, Estonia

[Tooting Carmen]

Portuguese, Spaniards, Southern Italians, Albanians and Greeks are certainly lighter than Armenians and Azeris and possibly also Georgians.

[Septentrion]

Portuguese, Spaniards, Southern Italians, Albanians and Greeks are certainly lighter than Armenians and Azeris and possibly also Georgians.

I guess your «*southern group fairer*than a more northern group*» doesn’t really work in Europe. For a group to be fairer, they need to be in all categories. Right? For example the English are blonder-haired than the Irish, but they are darker-eyed and not yet quite as pale, although they are pretty fair. The same goes for the Dutch, northern Germans, etc…

[PaganPoet]

No. Don’t generalize. There are parts of Southern Germany that may be lighter than Wallonia, but others are similar or darker. Remember Walloons are intermediates but on the light side.

You probably can find such spots in Wallonia as well. So Yes.

[Septentrion]

You probably can find such spots in Wallonia as well. So Yes.

Agreed. For once!

[Grace O'Malley]

[QUOTE=Milkaner;7917376]

The point is there is striking or distinctive red hair and red-blond hair which is often associated with occasional penetration in heterozygotes. If someone has just one copy of R160W which is less penetrant (also more concentrated in typical Germanic peoples than Insular Celts) and is also predisposed to be very fair haired their chances of showing rufosity will be greater. If you have two copies of the most penetrant variant R151C you will likely have very red hair even if you predisposed to darker hair. This is quite clear based on HIrisPlex predictions.

When we start talking about reddish-blond hair especially in children who are more likely to present with recessive traits like rufosity there is definitely significant overlap between Scandinavians and the British Isles.

I doubt R160W is less common in Insular Celts than Germanics. All 4 of my family tested have this version so that would be odd that we have that if it is not at least as common in Insular Celts. That's just something that 23&Me have stated. It doesn't seem to be less common as per this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22202X15401411

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9665397/

[reboun]

Nevermind my comment. You already restricted the examples with Old World populations.