Examples in the Old World where a more southern group is fairer than a more northern group

[Melkiirs]

I doubt R160W is less common in Insular Celts than Germanics. All 4 of my family tested have this version so that would be odd that we have that if it is not at least as common in Insular Celts. That's just something that 23&Me have stated. It doesn't seem to be less common as per this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22202X15401411

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9665397/

It actually really peaks in certain typical Germanics and is more broadly Northern European than specifically Northwestern in concentration. British Isles populations are not more than around 5% behind so the difference is far from extreme. On gnomAD v2.1.1 the carrier rate for the Swedish aggregate of 12,910 individuals is 21.26% which is higher than the 15.5% for Irish in the study you referenced:

Spoiler!

https://gnomad.broadinstitute.org/va...et=gnomad_r2_1

Danes are somewhat closer to British than Swedes are with R151C being somewhat more frequent even though R160W is still the most common R variant. The overall carrier rate of R variants is similar to Swedes (just over 40%) while it can reach 50% among Insular Celts:

Spoiler!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4372390/

20.6% of the UK Biobank sample is a carrier for R151C, which is the most common R variant in the British Isles. For R160W the carrier rate is 16.5%. This study makes direct reference of UK Biobank data: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6548228/

For Swedes at least these rates are more or less reversed. As per the Samuel Andrews (Old TA account: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/me...49-Fire-Haired) spreadsheet all Scandinavians are more frequently carriers of R160W than R151C. This is apparently in fact the case with Northern/Central Europeans at large. The gnomAD data is probably better representative of Swedes than the more limited but otherwise quite extensive data he obtained from 23&me.

Here is his spreadsheet although it has some limitations especially regarding sources. You probably have seen it before:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...uNtXGrCtw/edit

The combination of a greater tendency of Scandinavians towards R160W over R151C and a high incidence of very light hair pigmentation leads golden-red hair to be proportionally more common than deeper red. Dense pigmentation can mask rufosity. Where a dark-haired person would only have a rufous cast to their hair in certain light, a fair haired person might be reddish-blond. The redness of more obscured reddish-brown shades (not dark red which is fully expressed) can seem hard to discern in different lighting. Neither the Fischer nor Fischer-Saller scales include such shades as reds but the later includes “red-blond” shades which are more likely to be associated with carrying only one copy of an R variant. For this reason when reddish-blond shades are counted there is more overlap between Scandinavia and the British Isles in red hair.

Here is an example of someone with masked rufosity. My dad has a high school friend whose hair can change from medium to dark brown (~Fischer #5) with essentially no apparent red tint to fairly reddish, almost like a light auburn. He may possibly carry one copy of an R variant, but until the eumelanin is degraded by photobleaching his rufosity does not clearly show:

Spoiler!

[Grace O'Malley]

It actually really peaks in certain typical Germanics and is more broadly Northern European than specifically Northwestern in concentration. British Isles populations are not more than around 5% behind so the difference is far from extreme. On gnomAD v2.1.1 the carrier rate for the Swedish aggregate of 12,910 individuals is 21.26% which is higher than the 15.5% for Irish in the study you referenced:

Spoiler!

https://gnomad.broadinstitute.org/va...et=gnomad_r2_1

Danes are somewhat closer to British than Swedes are with R151C being somewhat more frequent even though R160W is still the most common R variant. The overall carrier rate of R variants is similar to Swedes (just over 40%) while it can reach 50% among Insular Celts:

Spoiler!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4372390/

20.6% of the UK Biobank sample is a carrier for R151C, which is the most common R variant in the British Isles. For R160W the carrier rate is 16.5%. This study makes direct reference of UK Biobank data: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6548228/

For Swedes at least these rates are more or less reversed. As per the Samuel Andrews (Old TA account: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/me...49-Fire-Haired) spreadsheet all Scandinavians are more frequently carriers of R160W than R151C. This is apparently in fact the case with Northern/Central Europeans at large. The gnomAD data is probably better representative of Swedes than the more limited but otherwise quite extensive data he obtained from 23&me.

Here is his spreadsheet although it has some limitations especially regarding sources. You probably have seen it before:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...uNtXGrCtw/edit

The combination of a greater tendency of Scandinavians towards R160W over R151C and a high incidence of very light hair pigmentation leads golden-red hair to be proportionally more common than deeper red. Dense pigmentation can mask rufosity. Where a dark-haired person would only have a rufous cast to their hair in certain light, a fair haired person might be reddish-blond. The redness of more obscured reddish-brown shades (not dark red which is fully expressed) can seem hard to discern in different lighting. Neither the Fischer nor Fischer-Saller scales include such shades as reds but the later includes “red-blond” shades which are more likely to be associated with carrying only one copy of an R variant. For this reason when reddish-blond shades are counted there is more overlap between Scandinavia and the British Isles in red hair.

Here is an example of someone with masked rufosity. My dad has a high school friend whose hair can change from medium to dark brown (~Fischer #5) with essentially no apparent red tint to fairly reddish, almost like a light auburn. He may possibly carry one copy of an R variant, but until the eumelanin is degraded by photobleaching his rufosity does not clearly show:

Spoiler!

You're a wealth of knowledge on these statistics. I'll ask my relative if she can check her variants as she is a light redhead. Her father is also tested and he has a similar colour.

[Negah]

Lebanese are also lighter than Assyrians, Kurds and Iranians too. Assyrians and Kurds live about 300 miles further north than Lebanese even though both of their topographies are very similar (Mountainous).

Lebanon does not get as hot as other countries in the MENA region, and it is the only country in the area that does not have deserts. It has a milder climate in the summer months in comparison.

Eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq, and Western Iran experience much colder winters and have a more continental climate, but their summers are warmer.


I've noticed that the Caucasus region of Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan appear to have lighter skin tones compared to the Levantines, including the Lebanese.

[Negah]

South east English than Welsh? lol that probably is true, also i would say Dutch are fairer than the Baltic peoples and possibly Poles, some Balkan peoples are likely lighter than northern Italians and the northern Spanish, Also probably many middle eastern groups might be higher in lightness in places south than north i.e some Lebanese might surpass some Turks in lightness, also Lurs in Iran, Kalash in Pakistan.

I am not sure I understand you here. Are you implying that Lebanese are lighter than Turks, or that when a Lebanese is light, he is lighter than the light Turks?

Kalash people are a small and isolated community with a population of around 4000-5000 individuals. Despite their size, they appear frequently on these forums for a variety of reasons. They are really not an ethnic group.

[chinshen]

Lebanon does not get as hot as other countries in the MENA region, and it is the only country in the area that does not have deserts. It has a milder climate in the summer months in comparison.

Eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq, and Western Iran experience much colder winters and have a more continental climate, but their summers are warmer.


I've noticed that the Caucasus region of Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan appear to have lighter skin tones compared to the Levantines, including the Lebanese.

Agree, but the summers in Lebanon are much more brutal than Eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq and Western Iran due to a very high humidity were Lebanon being located right on the Mediterranean sea which is a warm water body compared to lets say the Pacific ocean.
For instance, Southern California is located at the same latitude as Lebanon, but the weather on the coast of Southern California is much milder than the coastal areas of Lebanon.

[Septentrion]

[QUOTE=Grace O'Malley;7925493]

I doubt R160W is less common in Insular Celts than Germanics. All 4 of my family tested have this version so that would be odd that we have that if it is not at least as common in Insular Celts. That's just something that 23&Me have stated. It doesn't seem to be less common as per this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22202X15401411

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9665397/

You are probably a descendant of those Vikings who intermixed with the Gaelic women. As the R160W gene for red hair seems to be concentrated in a northeastern European direction. Nevertheless, due to the fact that Ireland is a «*mecca*» for gingers, there’s a great possibility for an abundance of that variant there too.

[Septentrion]

[QUOTE=Milkaner;7917376]

The point is there is striking or distinctive red hair and red-blond hair which is often associated with occasional penetration in heterozygotes. If someone has just one copy of R160W which is less penetrant (also more concentrated in typical Germanic peoples than Insular Celts) and is also predisposed to be very fair haired their chances of showing rufosity will be greater. If you have two copies of the most penetrant variant R151C you will likely have very red hair even if you predisposed to darker hair. This is quite clear based on HIrisPlex predictions.

When we start talking about reddish-blond hair especially in children who are more likely to present with recessive traits like rufosity there is definitely significant overlap between Scandinavians and the British Isles.

I have a copy of the R151C gene variant, my hair colour is a light auburn. I inherited my reddish hair from my paternal side. However, my dad’s hair colour isn’t red ( rather medium brown) but his beard colour is red.

[Melkiirs]

I have a copy of the R151C gene variant, my hair colour is a light auburn. I inherited my reddish hair from my paternal side. However, my dad’s hair colour isn’t red ( rather medium brown) but his beard colour is red.

You were bright red as a child if I recall correctly but it faded to light auburn which might not have have occurred to the same extent with two copies. With only one copy of a highly penetrant variant like R151C (13-20x higher likelihood of red hair for two copies acording to SNPedia) the trait is likely to be expressed partially. How it is expressed partially is dependent on many factors including predisposition to lighter or darker hair pigmentation. My father's close friend as an example has darker brown hair with a vague reddish cast but after a while in the sun his hair becomes much more red (more than typical for dark-haired people). The high concentration of darker eumelanin obscures the elevated reddish pigment which shows much more when that eumelanin is degraded by UV radiation. If your father had lighter hair it might be clearly golden in addition to having a red-beard.

With Scandinavians being so fair haired partial expression of rufosity that might be somewhat masked or obscured (although not invisible) with darker pigmentation would be more likely to be apparent although more as golden shade than a fully expressed red. Fischer-Saller scale includes certain golden shades as red-blonds. Dark auburn/chestnut shades similar to Fischer #6 are excluded. When you include these reddish-blond shade it can lead to definite overlap between the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Bryn's Norwegian schoolchildren although on the face clearing overlapping with several Scottish districts under Gray & Tocher in red would have been less red-haired if only fully expressed cases were counted and not those bordering on fair. A 1950s study of 8159 Copenhagen schoolchildren correlating with blood type (https://books.google.com/books?id=7P...i4Q6AF6BAgLEAI) found about 1.9% "strikingly red hair" which was clearly distinct from non-red siblings. That is almost 70% of the nearly 2.8% "red" Søren Hansen found among Copenhagen schoolchildren much earlier, so most of the cases generally observed are unambiguous. If a similar proportion of Bryn's Norwegian schoolchildren were also "strikingly red" the frequency of red would be about 3% which is below schoolchildren from all Scottish districts under Gray & Tocher. So standards are important to consider in this matter, if Scottish/British cases are indeed more likely to be fully expressed.

[Septentrion]

You were bright red as a child if I recall correctly but it faded to light auburn which might not have have occurred to the same extent with two copies. With only one copy of a highly penetrant variant like R151C (13-20x higher likelihood of red hair for two copies acording to SNPedia) the trait is likely to be expressed partially. How it is expressed partially is dependent on many factors including predisposition to lighter or darker hair pigmentation. My father's close friend as an example has darker brown hair with a vague reddish cast but after a while in the sun his hair becomes much more red (more than typical for dark-haired people). The high concentration of darker eumelanin obscures the elevated reddish pigment which shows much more when that eumelanin is degraded by UV radiation. If your father had lighter hair it might be clearly golden in addition to having a red-beard.

With Scandinavians being so fair haired partial expression of rufosity that might be somewhat masked or obscured (although not invisible) with darker pigmentation would be more likely to be apparent although more as golden shade than a fully expressed red. Fischer-Saller scale includes certain golden shades as red-blonds. Dark auburn/chestnut shades similar to Fischer #6 are excluded. When you include these reddish-blond shade it can lead to definite overlap between the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Bryn's Norwegian schoolchildren although on the face clearing overlapping with several Scottish districts under Gray & Tocher in red would have been less red-haired if only fully expressed cases were counted and not those bordering on fair. A 1950s study of 8159 Copenhagen schoolchildren correlating with blood type (https://books.google.com/books?id=7P...i4Q6AF6BAgLEAI) found about 1.9% "strikingly red hair" which was clearly distinct from non-red siblings. That is almost 70% of the nearly 2.8% "red" Søren Hansen found among Copenhagen schoolchildren much earlier, so most of the cases generally observed are unambiguous. If a similar proportion of Bryn's Norwegian schoolchildren were also "strikingly red" the frequency of red would be about 3% which is below schoolchildren from all Scottish districts under Gray & Tocher. So standards are important to consider in this matter, if Scottish/British cases are indeed more likely to be fully expressed.

Yes, as a child, my hair colour was fiery red. I could easily be confused for an Irish or Scottish person. Well even now. I don’t think that on my trip to Australia (Melbourne, Canberra) about two weeks ago, that people could tell that I wasn’t Australian, unless I spoke. Oh well, my pigmentation due to the fact that it’s in the middle of the summer over there (it was darn hot!!!!). I couldn’t stand the sun. Western Norway also has a high frequency for gingers at times comparable to some parts of the British Isles (like England). Scandinavians as a whole are less rufous than the British, not only because of the high ratios of fair hair, but also have slightly more melanin in the skin therefore have the propensities to tan much more so than the British due to a lower ratio of red hair genes. The red hair gene is not only expressed in the hair colour, but also skin colour, skin type, propensity to tan or not, sun sensitivity, freckling, etc…. There are many dark-haired Welsh and Scottish who are paler-complected than Scandinavians due to red hair genes and a higher ratio of IRF4 gene variant ( responsible for the combination of brown hair, blue eyes, freckling, a very sun-sensitive skin).

[Flashball]

[QUOTE=Septentrion;7926414]

I have a copy of the R151C gene variant, my hair colour is a light auburn. I inherited my reddish hair from my paternal side. However, my dad’s hair colour isn’t red ( rather medium brown) but his beard colour is red.

A part of my beard is reddish + chesnut (châtain), other part a mix of blackish, chesnut, blond and reddish, but i don't have any "red" genetic variant according my nebula raw data (full genome).