Are Cro Magnon populations in Britain native or the result of recent migrations?

[Oliver109]

Bell Beakers were part Cro Magnid

Obviously

[Creoda]

Obviously

Pure 'Cro Magnons' (in the most generous definition, WHG) in Britain were at least 75% replaced by Neolithic Farmers 5000-6000 years ago. After which the Neolithic Britons were 90% replaced by Bell Beakers 4500 years ago. After which Bronze Age (Southern) British were 50% replaced by proto-Celts 3000 years ago. After which, Celtic Britons in England were 75%+ replaced by Anglo-Saxons, Vikings & French in the Middle Ages.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Oliver109]

Pure 'Cro Magnons' (in the most generous definition, WHG) in Britain were at least 75% replaced by Neolithic Farmers 5000-6000 years ago. After which the Neolithic Britons were 90% replaced by Bell Beakers 4500 years ago. After which Bronze Age (Southern) British were 50% replaced by proto-Celts 3000 years ago. After which, Celtic Britons in England were 75%+ replaced by Anglo-Saxons, Vikings & French in the Middle Ages.

Draw your own conclusions.

Obviously cro Magnons have survived despite all the migrations of neolithics etc, could this be a sign of a re emergence?

[Creoda]

Obviously cro Magnons have survived despite all the migrations of neolithics etc, could this be a sign of a re emergence?

Native 'Cro Magnon'/Mesolithic British have not survived, they would make up under 1% of any British person's ancestry. The re-emergence of European Cro-Magnon/Mesolithic blood and phenotypes occurred when the Bell Beakers wiped out the woggy Neolithic British 4500 years ago. Ever since then there has been a gradual decline of that component and associated phenotypes in Britain, especially in England.

There's no point in talking about native Cro Magnons, you should talk specifically of British Bell Beakers. Their presence in Britain is old enough to be native, and unlike Cheddar Man their influence meaningfully survives today in people of the British Isles, most strongly in Ireland and other Insular 'Celts'. It is essentially what separates the British & Irish from continentals, genetically and phenotypically.

[Oliver109]

Native 'Cro Magnon'/Mesolithic British have not survived, they would make up under 1% of any British person's ancestry. The re-emergence of European Cro-Magnon/Mesolithic blood and phenotypes occurred when the Bell Beakers wiped out the woggy Neolithic British 4500 years ago. Ever since then there has been a gradual decline of that component and associated phenotypes in Britain, especially in England.

There's no point in talking about native Cro Magnons, you should talk specifically of British Bell Beakers. Their presence in Britain is old enough to be native, and unlike Cheddar Man their influence meaningfully survives today in people of the British Isles, most strongly in Ireland and other Insular 'Celts'. It is essentially what separates the British & Irish from continentals, genetically and phenotypically.

Interesting though how would you explain the massive difference between robust bell beaker types in the UK and Germany and the more gracile delicate French alpines who also have BB ancestry?

[Immanenz]

Interesting though how would you explain the massive difference between robust bell beaker types in the UK and Germany and the more gracile delicate French alpines who also have BB ancestry?

because they have much more Neolithic farmer ancestry.

[Oliver109]

because they have much more Neolithic farmer ancestry.

How much more? That still doesn't explain the fact that gracile alpine types are about 4 times as common in central France than in England.

[cass]

In my opinion, there is no significant statistical difference between Germanic migrants (groups with some EE admix) and indigenous people. Both populations of Ireland have fairly similar levels of WHG. Among Bretons, migrants increased the WHG and among the Scots, they lowered it.

[Septentrion]

Perfectly reasonable statement, showing how well racial anthropology fits with history, once we account for the continuous gracilization in the last 10k years. Wherever we go in Europe, ENF ancestry correlates with phenotypes native to and also very common in Anatolia and Middle East: Med, Alpinid, Dinaric and to a lesser extent Armenoid (latter seem to have taken little part in the great migration => less footprint in Europe but you will still find random Armenoids in all European ethnicities).

The so-called CM element (Aboriginal European) retained some of its robustness in NW but became extremely gracilized in the NE. If very gracilized, it is called Baltid: you will find some "Baltids" in Portugal even and you can bet they have no relation to Slavic invasions. If still a bit robust, it is called Faelid or whatever: once again there are some "Faelids" in Bosnia and Albania too, with no relation to Germanic. The super blonde variant in Scandinavia is gracilized too (but not to Baltid level), only that it has a Nordic (boreal) flair that makes it distinct enough to be unable to pass outside their region.

Be careful when insinuating statements such as that. Even in Northeastern Europe in Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Byelorussia and parts of both Ukraine and Russia there’s an unreduced Cromagnid (West Baltid) phenotype.

[Creoda]

Interesting though how would you explain the massive difference between robust bell beaker types in the UK and Germany and the more gracile delicate French alpines who also have BB ancestry?

Bell Beakers were a culture that spread across Western Europe (much like Slavs across Eastern Europe), but the ones in NW Europe were the purest and least diluted by Farmer blood. Actually the settled British Bell Beakers were genetically further from the settled Iberian and Southern French Bell Beakers than the modern British are from Southern French and Iberians (because of the mediating effect of the Celts).