LADOGAN (Apologies to forum members)

[Septentrion]

Good afternoon dear forum members.
Yesterday I got acquainted with a new for me forum term "Ladoga".
Having studied only Gunther's works before I was not familiar with this term.
Seeing such a result in the influence I started to learn about this term and it seems that I approached from the wrong side.

I want to apologize for my intolerance and temper in the post about my personal taxonomy. As I indicated above, I was into racial anthropology from here on out, but mostly on my own and the concepts in my head got mixed up, I may have misunderstood someone. In any case, I shouldn't have behaved rudely.

Having research on this topic I realized that the term Ladoga type and Ladoga influence in the format of forum definition seem to be different.

The racial type that Coon calls Ladoga is literally identical to the Uralic type identified by Bunak.
People in the course of defining my racial type (including among those who mentioned Ladoga) have indicated that I would pass for a representative of the territories in which a person with a Uraloid type could not theoretically be a "local". Which begs the question.

Question: Do I understand correctly that the Ladoga substratum means cromanoid variations (most often influenced by another racial type) characteristic of Eastern Europe in particular?

I got a number of archaic features such as developed brow arches, deep set eyes and jaw shape from my grandfather who was typed on the same forum as a western baltid or falid. I got my soft tissues from my mother, who was typed here as baltoid.

Question: Do I understand correctly that the Ladoga traits mean archaic from my grandfather?

I have taken a dna test and have an know almost everything about origin. My ancestors are mostly from southwest and west of Russia, some of my distant maternal ancestors were from the Saratov region from the German colony "Warenburg" , part of the ancestors from my paternal grandfather's side go to Poland.
I am a carrier of r1a, and t2b accordingly.


Mother:




Maternal grandfather:



Paternal grandfather:

The Ladogan is very ancient Caucasoid type of North - East Europe and Western Siberia. It is even older than the Uralid subraces which you claim and also older than the Baltid subraces. It is the Ladogan which played a role in the formation of those subraces. See. It is a nobler racial type and is obviously indigenous to Russia and still forms an important racial type there. What strikes me about this Eastern European race, is the low, very wide face with a great interorbital distance and a wide, heavy mandible.

[cass]

are you criticising carleton coon's choice of geographical nomenclature
to label the constellation of craniometric details
for skulls that are more than four thousand years old
from a lake near the border of finland and russia

with genetic details
of contemporary population-groups in poland and lithuania

if this is a continuation of a conversation
from an other thread — that might explain my confusion.

Please, don't put in my mouth theses that I didn't formulate.

[lei.talk]

"Maybe you're not following the discussion." — is this a continued conversation from else-where

---

I reject the thesis about the presence of Mongoloids in Poland and Lithuania.
...No part-Mongolian element penetrates into Lithuania and Poland.

are you criticising carleton coon's choice of geographical nomenclature
to label the constellation of craniometric details
for skulls that are more than four thousand years old
from a lake near the border of finland and russia

with genetic details
of contemporary population-groups in poland and lithuania

if this is a continuation of a conversation
from an other thread — that might explain my confusion.

Please, don't put in my mouth theses that I didn't formulate.

did not all three previously referenced physical anthropologists
characterise the element under consideration
as pre-mongolid: an early intermediate evolutionary form

[cass]

did not all three previously referenced physical anthropologists
characterise the element under consideration
as pre-mongolid: an early intermediate evolutionary form

Indeed, so what? Keep in mind that changes in cranial indexes can occur as quickly as changes in body height. Such changes do not have to be the result of an admixture of an alien population. Hence the conclusion that the whole school of anthropology based on the constancy of racial characteristics is therefore quite useless.

[lei.talk]

...the whole school of anthropology

based on the constancy of racial characteristics

is therefore quite useless.

learning new details of physical anthropology
is always thrilling!

who is the physical anthropologist that
(in stark contrast to the three previously referenced)
wrote of the immutability of forms sans admixture:

the constancy of racial characteristics

is his text/article on-line

if not, give us the title.

we will track it down
and deposit it in the internet archive because:

[cass]

learning new details of physical anthropology
is always thrilling!

who is the physical anthropologist that
(in stark contrast to the three previously referenced)
wrote of the immutability of forms sans admixture:

the constancy of racial characteristics

is his text/article on-line

if not, give us the title.

we will track it down
and deposit it in the internet archive because:

The Brachycephalization of Recent Mankind
Franz Weidenreich
Southwestern Journal of Anthropology, Vol. 1, No. 1 (Spring, 1945), pp. 1-54 (54 pages)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3628782

[cass]

This is the area of occurrence of Comb Ceramic culture (Coon's Kammkeramische Kultur) in Baltics.


source: A. Girininkas. Baltų kultūros ištakos II. Klaipėda, 2011. С. 105—106.


Coon frivolously extended the distribution of Kammkeramik descendants far beyond the limits of their presence.

[lei.talk]

not franz weidenreich — obviously — he is well-known:

is there any where in his writing
a physical anthropologist is named
as claiming an immutability of forms sans admixture?

The Brachycephalization of Recent Mankind
Franz Weidenreich
Southwestern Journal of Anthropology, Vol. 1, No. 1 (Spring, 1945), pp. 1-54 (54 pages)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3628782

on the other hand, erik hug
(quoted by weidenreich in your image) is a new voice for us.

his article:

Die Schädel der frühmittelalterlichen Gräber
aus dem solothurnischen Aaregebiet
in ihrer Stellung zur Reihengräberbevölkerung Mitteleuropas.
(Ein Beitrag zum Problem der europäischen „Brachycephalie”)

while lengthy, extremely detailed,
and supported by many pages of references

has yet to name a physical anthropologist
declaring an immutability of forms sans admixture.

finishing erik hug's article will require another day
and tracking down all of his citations
will take weeks.

if you know the name
of a physical anthropologist
advocating the immutability of forms sans admixture,
please, share it.

[cass]

not franz weidenreich — obviously — he is well-known:

is there any where in his writing
a physical anthropologist is named
as claiming an immutability of forms sans admixture?

on the other hand, erik hug
(quoted by weidenreich in your image) is a new voice for us.

his article:

Die Schädel der frühmittelalterlichen Gräber
aus dem solothurnischen Aaregebiet
in ihrer Stellung zur Reihengräberbevölkerung Mitteleuropas.
(Ein Beitrag zum Problem der europäischen „Brachycephalie”)

while lengthy, extremely detailed,
and supported by many pages of references

has yet to name a physical anthropologist
declaring an immutability of forms sans admixture.

finishing erik hug's article will require another day
and tracking down all of his citations
will take weeks.

if you know the name
of a physical anthropologist
advocating the immutability of forms sans admixture,
please, share it.

I don't really understand your objections.
This has been a debate that anthropologists have been debating ever since the cephalic index was recognized as a distinguishing factor.

source: THE RACES OF EUROPE A SOCIOLOGICAL STUDY (Lowell Institute Lectures) BY WILLIAM Z. RIPLEY,



Traces of the association of Eastern European brachycephalization with presumed mongolodidal admixtures can be also found in Gunther, Eickstedt, followed by Coon. Especially later, after the Nazi anthropologists changed course. before 1937

[lei.talk]

I don't really understand your objections.
This has been a debate that anthropologists have been debating
ever since the cephalic index was recognized as a distinguishing factor.

we have no objections
to learning new details of physical anthropology —

which is why — when you posted:

Keep in mind that changes in cranial indexes can occur as quickly as changes in body height.

Such changes do not have to be the result of an admixture of an alien population.

Hence the conclusion that the whole school of anthropology
based on the constancy of racial characteristics is therefore quite useless.

our response was:

learning new details of physical anthropology
is always thrilling!

who is the physical anthropologist that
(in stark contrast to the three previously referenced)
wrote of the immutability of forms sans admixture:

the constancy of racial characteristics

is his text/article on-line

if not, give us the title.

we will track it down
and deposit it in the internet archive because:

we have no objections
to the knowledge you possess.

our request is that you share the source:
which physical anthropologist wrote that
phenotypes only change through admixture?

that there is no adaptation/mutation/natural selection/evolution?
only change through admixture?