Beware the rise of the "Woke Right"

[tropicalslavic]

This is sort-of what I am talking about, yes. This notion, which has its variants on both the Left and increasingly the Right, that Westerners (especially but by no means exclusively Americans) are exceptionally selfish hedonists, and everyone else is a happy smiling pious peasant who wouldn't dare watch porn or leave their partner.

The left wing version I've met is American communists who think China, North Korea, etc. are amazing perfect places full of morally upright people. They think the same of countries that were communist in the past, and they believe no longer being communist is responsible for anything bad there.

Regardless of political system, culture, or religion, most average people everywhere are quite similar to each other.

[Tooting Carmen]

Not nearly as much as people think. It's in the single digit percentage and highest contributions of Jews was actually in UK, which would only slightly demote it from 1st place in global achievements behind France and Germany. For better and (often) worse, Jews are half Europeans.

I love it how many people like to play the game of "when Jews do well and do things we like they are White, but when they do badly and misbehave, they are not".

Again that's the trade off they ve chosen. I could care less if they are willing to demote their language and customs to get pretty buildings and western level of comfort, often with their tacky touch on top of it. Dubai is esthetically another visual abomination but that's a separate matter, it's the best that the West can do technically, if you throw billions at us. We can build you an helicopter that runs on coke as well if you so wish, or a Lamborghini covered with diamonds, a common occurence with Arabs around there. Laughable but not so surprising, and the bills smell the same.

For good and for ill, isn't Dubai a kind-of example of Lee Kuan Yew's notion of "modernisation without Westernisation"? In that it combines Western wealth and technology with (albeit watered down, i.e. alcohol is legal) Islamic morals and laws. (And of course Singapore is different to Dubai - much more classy, intelligent and tasteful).

or an Afram using a smartphone's gps in a western car, rambling about its last trip in a plane.

Are you implying that Aframs aren't part of Western culture and aren't 'real Americans', despite being there longer than many White ethnic groups? Christ man, your views are getting more extreme by the week.

Sharia is barbaric and inferior but it's tailored for the population there.

So like me, you do believe that a certain amount of cultural relativism and difference is OK? Because the reason I am having this debate with you is because (1) you praised Dubai for being more relaxed and crime-free than Western cities and (2) you damned said Western cities as "multiracial hellholes", despite the fact that Arabs are a minority nowadays in Dubai, whereas in most European cities (the US is another matter) Whites still make up a majority, or at least plurality, of the population.

In the same tune Gaddafi was a tyrant to western standards but was the only way to have a stable and somewhat developing state.

Well I do agree that, whether from a moral or even just self-interested perspective, the overthrow of Gadaffi was one of the biggest blunders in recent Western foreign policy.

I don't want that in the West because it's simply not needed here. You don't need to cut people's hands for them to eventually understand, stealing is bad.

I agree, but still could we please get past this magical thinking notion that crime would disappear tomorrow were every single non-white deported from the West? Even taken on its own terms, it simply is not true.

Born overseas?! Like from oversea/colonial territories? Im trying to imagine something else than what you apparently claim with this new pet peeve of yours. 1/3 born in southern and eastern europe would translate into at least a dozen of millions. Besides Poles, there are really not much eastern euros living in France, let alone from Caucasus. 1/3 is where we are right now with all the recent massive immigrations, this just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, mainly from Portugal, Spain, Italy, Poland, Russia and Armenia (in no particular order) in the period between 1880 and 1940 - some were refugees, others economic migrants.

[Tooting Carmen]

I thought I would add this from another thread:

The supposed social conservatism of non-white/non-Western societies is heavily exaggerated and at times quite frankly bogus. Certainly, rates of divorce, out-of-wedlock births and STDs in Africa and the Caribbean are through the roof. Further, even homosexuality is more widespread among them than is commonly acknowledged. And while - for now at least - rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births in the MENA and Asia are certainly far lower than in the West (or Africa/Caribbean), here too we should take it with a pinch of salt: birth rates are below replacement rate in most of East Asia as well as Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Iran and parts of India; TV shows and films from Turkey, Lebanon, Pakistan and India are nowadays just as oversexed as anything you find in the West (in fact, I'd even say that you see more topless musclebound men in Bollywood films than in Hollywood films these days); abortion is widespread in China and India, not least as a way of getting rid of girls; prostitution is more prevalent in parts of SE Asia than anywhere in the West. Etc etc.

[Petalpusher]

I love it how many people like to play the game of "when Jews do well and do things we like they are White, but when they do badly and misbehave, they are not".

Which is precisely what you ve just tried to do here. "Europe's achievements also come from Jews", as in non whites. Just playing dumb in return TC.

For good and for ill, isn't Dubai a kind-of example of Lee Kuan Yew's notion of "modernisation without Westernisation"? In that it combines Western wealth and technology with (albeit watered down, i.e. alcohol is legal) Islamic morals and laws. (And of course Singapore is different to Dubai - much more classy, intelligent and tasteful).

It's exactly that, a city built on western blueprints, like if it was for a fancy client for whom money is no object, as well with a lot of nationalities living there and some local more toned down social flavors to not scare newcomers. If all Arabs disappeared tomorrow morning, it wouldn't change anything, at all (provided maybe they leave the key of the oil fields). The social laws would just get more relaxed, for good and ill again.
Singapoure is a nice place too, again would be safer and preferable to live there than places in Europe. I wouldn't personally, nor in Moscow or Dubai even, if that reassures you, but objectively it would be. Besides, i already live in "Dubai", just without the non whites, and with French as the official language. Im not moving anywhere else.

What do you think would happen in the US or in the heavily non whites areas of Europe if all the whites were to almost disappear tomorrow? The new golden age of Europe or more like the horror show of...south Africa?

Are you implying that Aframs aren't part of Western culture and aren't 'real Americans', despite being there longer than many White ethnic groups? Christ man, your views are getting more extreme by the week.

Africans are part of the West now? or even Aframs, because they are mixed with whites? They have contributed nothing in the genesis of the Western culture and principles. Pls don't talk to me about music in the last century.

So like me, you do believe that a certain amount of cultural relativism and difference is OK? Because the reason I am having this debate with you is because (1) you praised Dubai for being more relaxed and crime-free than Western cities and (2) you damned said Western cities as "multiracial hellholes", despite the fact that Arabs are a minority nowadays in Dubai, whereas in most European cities (the US is another matter) Whites still make up a majority, or at least plurality, of the population.

Yeah but what are the Arabs being replaced by? Westerners and cheap S.Asians labor for the most relevant part. Very different case than replacing whites by MENA and blacks, then let them run free like it's the case in the West. A disaster, with absolutely no benefits. So the exact contrary to Dubai.

I agree, but still could we please get past this magical thinking notion that crime would disappear tomorrow were every single non-white deported from the West? Even taken on its own terms, it simply is not true.

Criminality existed everywhere before non whites came in mass, yes thank you. It would enormously decrease however without them. Would you agree with that? You can try to disagree but it is statistically impossible to deny.

Yes, mainly from Portugal, Spain, Italy, Poland, Russia and Armenia (in no particular order) in the period between 1880 and 1940 - some were refugees, others economic migrants.

Where are their descendants?! They must have had a really really bad fertility rate. I ve never bumped for example into a single Russian in France in my 25 years living there (a lot more recently ofc). Where do theses figures come from?

[Tooting Carmen]

Which is precisely what you ve just tried to do here. "Europe's achievements also come from Jews", as in non whites. Just playing dumb in return TC.

No, some of Europe's achievements also come from Jews. And are they White or not?

It's exactly that, a city built on western blueprints, like if it was for a fancy client for whom money is no object, as well with a lot of nationalities living there and some local more toned down social flavors to not scare newcomers. If all Arabs disappeared tomorrow morning, it wouldn't change anything, at all (provided maybe they leave the key of the oil fields). The social laws would just get more relaxed, for good and ill again.
Singapore is a nice place too, again would be safer and preferable to live there than places in Europe. I wouldn't personally, nor in Moscow or Dubai even, if that reassures you, but objectively it would be.

And unlike Dubai, it does have a majority ethnic group, even with all its diversity, but this time it isn't Westerners either.

What do you think would happen in the US or in the heavily non whites areas of Europe if all the whites were to almost disappear tomorrow? The new golden age of Europe or more like the horror show of...south Africa?

Neither. But to claim the latter is catastrophising in the extreme, and doesn't recognise the unique circumstances, history and ethnic resentments of South Africa and its peoples.

Africans are part of the West now? or even Aframs, because they are mixed with whites? They have contributed nothing in the genesis of the Western culture and principles. Pls don't talk to me about music in the last century.

African-Americans are part of the West, yes. They are no less American than White Americans, and have no more affinity nowadays with Nigerians or Kenyans than most White Americans do with Estonians or Moldovans.

Yeah but what are the Arabs being replaced by? Westerners and cheap S.Asians labor for the most relevant part.

Still it is changing beyond recognition, either way. And it sounds like a pretty decadent society in many ways too.

Very different case than replacing whites by MENA and blacks, then let them run free like it's the case in the West. A disaster, with absolutely no benefits. So the exact contrary to Dubai.

I am not saying that I like the idea of Whites becoming a minority in European countries either, far from it. But my reasoning is clearly different from yours: I believe that ALL nations and peoples - whether European or not - have a right to be themselves, whereas your views sound much more Panglossian and 19th century about the "forward march of Progress" etc etc. (When Westerners supplant non-Westerners, that is).

Criminality existed everywhere before non whites came in mass, yes thank you. It would enormously decrease however without them. Would you agree with that? You can try to disagree but it is statistically impossible to deny.

In a thread I showed you, it said that 27% of prisoners in England and Wales are non-white, whereas they make up 18% of the overall population. A disparity to be sure, but that doesn't mean that the majority of crime would disappear in their absence whatsoever.

Where are their descendants?! They must have had a really really bad fertility rate. I ve never bumped for example into a single Russian in France in my 25 years living there (a lot more recently ofc). Where do theses figures come from?

Have you seen the surnames of loads of White 'French' celebrities nowadays, whether politicians, sportspeople or actors?

[Petalpusher]

No, some of Europe's achievements also come from Jews. And are they White or not?

Little in proportion but if you want to substract them, im fine with it. We would go from 96% of the modern world advancements to 92% (i might even undershoot there).

The point anyway was it's never gonna be an equivalent to a few westerners going to very specific places like Dubai and having almost made it from the ground up.

And unlike Dubai, it does have a majority ethnic group, even with all its diversity, but this time it isn't Westerners either.

Ok? Yes East Asians generally have more functioning societies and less backward civilizations than pretty much anything else in MENA and Africa.

Neither. But to claim the latter is catastrophising in the extreme, and doesn't recognise the unique circumstances, history and ethnic resentments of South Africa and its peoples.

They resent us very much as well, to the point of hate as seen with many crimes for no apparent reasons. Due to colonization, the myths and fantasies surrounding it, as well as confusing it with American slavery. The south African scenario is way more likely than the one you would try to make us believe, that everybody will live in peace and harmony with 80% non whites, and none of them to pay their leech anymore. That would go so well im sure, exactly like in Dubai...

African-Americans are part of the West, yes. They are no less American than White Americans, and have no more affinity nowadays with Nigerians or Kenyans than most White Americans do with Estonians or Moldovans.

Aframs will feel closer to Nigerians and Kenyans, than they will to Estonians and Moldovans. It's really hard to strip the racial affect in humans wether we like it or not. All the more recent immigrations of Nigerians for example integrate with Aframs, disproving your point further. It's a natural thing that everybody will default back to, in many instances, and i think increasingly so now everybody (almost) has realized heavily multi racial societies are a disaster and quickly rather become multi conflictual societies.

Aframs are not part of the western civilization. They can be Americans i guess, im not sure many think of themselves as that simple monolithic definition of "American" however, but that's really not my problem either.

Still it is changing beyond recognition, either way. And it sounds like a pretty decadent society in many ways too.

In a nouveau riche fashion, who do stupid shit with their money, yes it can be seen as decadent.

I am not saying that I like the idea of Whites becoming a minority in European countries either, far from it.
But my reasoning is clearly different from yours: I believe that ALL nations and peoples - whether European or not - have a right to be themselves, whereas your views sound much more Panglossian and 19th century about the "forward march of Progress" etc etc. (When Westerners supplant non-Westerners, that is).

They had this right, im all for it too. The right to build from the ground up an industry, all the technology, the society able to support the developpement they wanted for their "state" using all the money we even made fall from the sky for them. But they would have had to wait possibly hundreds of years and it may even have never worked.
Instead they decided to take the shortcuts, call westerners and accomodate them to live there so it makes things easier and even faster. That was them using exactly the right you are talking about, just being a little impatient or not trustworthy of their own kind maybe.

In a thread I showed you, it said that 27% of prisoners in England and Wales are non-white, whereas they make up 18% of the overall population. A disparity to be sure, but that doesn't mean that the majority of crime would disappear in their absence whatsoever.

You ve seen the European stats, the ratio of crime of non whites is staggering, reaching x15 to 30 the rate of natives in most countries with sizeable immigration. You don't have exactly the same type of immigration.
Even if half the population of a country were to become like that, it would be hell on earth. So we should continue and see how worse it can get right?

Have you seen the surnames of loads of White 'French' celebrities nowadays, whether politicians, sportspeople or actors?

That's your statistic?...

I was totally convinced all the American were blacks when i watched a game of basketball the other day. But then i watched some baseball and i thought they were all latinos. Then i turned to a Democrat convention and so many looked mixed race or ambiguous. Im really confused now. Can anyone confirm if there are that many whites left in America?

[SilverKnight]

wtf

[Tooting Carmen]

Little in proportion but if you want to substract them, im fine with it. We would go from 96% of the modern world advancements to 92% (i might even undershoot there).

Even if it has been exaggerated, Jews have punched above their weight in many countries.

The point anyway was it's never gonna be an equivalent to a few westerners going to very specific places like Dubai and having almost made it from the ground up.

I doubt it is as simple and messianic as that.

Ok? Yes East Asians generally have more functioning societies and less backward civilizations than pretty much anything else in MENA and Africa.

Not all of East Asia is that wonderful either: North Korea, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, even much of China itself... So should all those groups be invaded and replaced in order to 'improve' them too?

They resent us very much as well, to the point of hate as seen with many crimes for no apparent reasons. Due to colonization, the myths and fantasies surrounding it, as well as confusing it with American slavery. The south African scenario is way more likely than the one you would try to make us believe, that everybody will live in peace and harmony with 80% non whites, and none of them to pay their leech anymore. That would go so well im sure, exactly like in Dubai...

I am not saying it would be wonderful, and I already said I disapprove of natives becoming a minority in their own country or continent. But you sound really paranoid.

Aframs will feel closer to Nigerians and Kenyans, than they will to Estonians and Moldovans.

Outside of some pseudo-intellectual Negritude and Afrocentric movements, no they really do not. And White Americans (the more sensible and reflective ones) don't feel more similar to those latter groups than to their Black compatriots either. Even with all the friction and segregation, White and Black Americans have grown up in the same country, speaking the same language, watching the same TV, listening to the same music. Besides, even much of the segregation was itself fake: look up Strom Thurmond...

It's really hard to strip the racial affect in humans whether we like it or not. It's a natural thing that everybody will default back to

This sounds like mystical bollocks. Would a little child born in Thailand or Ghana but raised from a very young age by a White French couple in an overwhelmingly White environment really eventually go back to their (largely illusory) routes?

Aframs are not part of the western civilization. They can be Americans i guess, im not sure many think of themselves as that simple monolithic definition of "American" however, but that's really not my problem either.

Condi Rice herself one said, "We Blacks have always loved America. The problem is for a long time America did not love us".

In a nouveau riche fashion, who do stupid shit with their money, yes it can be seen as decadent.

Quite.

They had this right, im all for it too. The right to build from the ground up an industry, all the technology, the society able to support the developpement they wanted for their "state" using all the money we even made fall from the sky for them. But they would have had to wait possibly hundreds of years and it may even have never worked.
Instead they decided to take the shortcuts and call westerners and accomodate them to live there so it makes things easier and even faster. That was them using exactly the right you are talking about, just being a little impatient or not trustworthy of their own kind maybe.

Selling your soul for Mammon is the lowest of the low.

You ve seen the European stats, the ratio of crime of non whites is staggering, reaching x15 to 30 the rate of natives in most countries with sizeable immigration. You don't have exactly the same type of immigration.
Even if half the population of a country were to become like that, it would be hell on earth. So we should continue and see how worse it can get right?

How is South Asian, Caribbean and West African immigration to the UK really that different to North African and SSA immigration to France?

That's your statistic?...

I was totally convinced all the American were blacks when i watched a game of basketball the other day. But then i watched some baseball and i thought they were all latinos. Then i turned to a Democrat convention and so many looked mixed race or ambiguous. Im really confused now. Can anyone confirm if there are that many whites left in America?

Don't be so facetious. Of course France remains a lot whiter than the US, but it cannot be denied that lots of French people who are fully White still have some not-too-distant foreign ancestry. As you've acknowledged yourself, around 35-40% of people in France have at least one foreign-born grandparent (whether European or not).

[Petalpusher]

Not all of East Asia is that wonderful either: North Korea, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, even much of China itself... So should all those groups be invaded and replaced in order to 'improve' them too?

Only if they ask for it nowadays?

I am not saying it would be wonderful, and I already said I disapprove of natives becoming a minority in their own country or continent. But you sound really paranoid.

Repeating it over and over only makes it appear more disingenuous in my opinion. I hope most still buy it around here as much as i do.

Outside of some pseudo-intellectual Negritude and Afrocentric movements, no they really do not. And White Americans (the more sensible and reflective ones) don't feel more similar to those latter groups than to their Black compatriots either. Even with all the friction and segregation, White and Black Americans have grown up in the same country, speaking the same language, watching the same TV, listening to the same music. Besides, even much of the segregation was itself fake: look up Strom Thurmond...

We are not sensible and reflective enough to want to live among a massive amount of Africans, that must be the real issue.

This sounds like mystical bollocks. Would a little child born in Thailand or Ghana but raised from a very young age by a White French couple in an overwhelmingly White environment really eventually go back to their (largely illusory) routes?

Many experiences of that in here during the waves of terrorism. Djihadists who departed to ISIS were noted to be disproportionately from mixed banlieue background (SSA, NA, other white euros) with an identity crisis, and that identity crisis always had the same conclusion. If i have any arab/non white blood i must join ISIS. In the same way North Africans support the Palestine, beyond religious reasons, first and foremost because they think it's their kins, very much racially. They give a rat ass about the Muslim Uyghurs on the other hand.

People always revert back to their roots eventually. They search for their biological parents, their origin, their history, where they belong and where should they go from there. The greastest fear of humans is to no longer belong to a group, be excluded from it, naturally they will seek the one with the best odds of accepting them.
The rest is another fairy tale of the modern world that may or may not have worked for some time i reckon, but i don't think it's working anymore. Quantity turns into a new quality, the rate of the immigration flow has been way too high anyway in recent time to even pursue the idea of integration anymore.

Selling your soul for Mammon is the lowest of the low.

Tempting in their shoes to bow to it. Money is paper if nobody around can sell you what you want.

How is South Asian, Caribbean and West African immigration to the UK really that different to North African and SSA immigration to France?

North Africans, in combination with blacks is quite a big difference. We never had much problem with oversea "blacks" and the little community of south Asians.

Don't be so facetious. Of course France remains a lot whiter than the US, but it cannot be denied that lots of French people who are fully White still have some not-too-distant foreign ancestry. As you've acknowledged yourself, around 35-40% of people in France have at least one foreign-born grandparent (whether European or not).

That makes it impossible then it was the case more than a century ago already. Where does that obsession with France come from? Rudel had a theory.

[CosmoLady]

Dubai or even Moscow are significantly less dangerous and more relaxed than any big West European city. Even if in some parts the criminality might be statistically higher, it's a completely different type of it, it's like comparing death by terrorism and by car crashes, which are always gonna be higher but there is a big difference as a society to get assaulted or even die randomly going out running errands than by actual accidents.

I would rather see my kids growing up in Dubai than Paris, London or whatever multiracial hellhole dump. Might not be ideal for a boy to grow up in such a, in a way too peaceful environement, but at the end of the day especially for girls, it's an objective reality they would be better off there. Hopefully there are a few even better options.

Totally agree.