Mentally, what is the difference between irish and english ?

[Mingle]

I thought Irish were obsessed with calling anyone born in Ireland if Nigerian or Polish "Irish" while patriotic English would be reluctant to refer to even people like me as English and probably idealize the English as a pale Anglo Nordic type. We know that South East Scotland is basically Scottish now in its makeup but we do still rally to the cause of unionism because we believe that Scotland is basically British and more English than Irish in it's culture and values. The Northern Irish are predominantly Catholic now so I can see the problem there and as I have said many times Northern Irish Catholics are definitely a distinct and more Brunet population than the British with a different culture i.e Palestine support.

Englishmen are less likely to refer to non-Englishmen as English because British civic/national identity is more appropriate for them and non-English immigrants themselves identify as British over English. In Ireland, the two identities are merged.

I don't know why you're talking about phenotypes.

[Oliver109]

Belgians never oppressed the Congolese. Most of the deaths were occurring before Leopold made the Congo his estate and as a result of disease and infighting. And the sources on his brutality were from one woke White American and another Black American that never visited the Congo. His exaggerated atrocities have mostly become mainstream pop culture knowledge cause of a book written by Adam Hochschild where he embellished info. Most of the Force Publique was also actually comprised of native Africans. Although the commanders were mostly European, and their presence actually reduced deaths among the Congolese.

Later when Leopold gave Congo to Belgium, the Congo became the most advanced and richest country in Africa bested by only South Africa. Then when it was given independence, Congo became the backwater it is today.

Well even before independence it was probably still a savage backwater

[Mingle]

Well even before independence it was probably still a savage backwater

Still way better under Belgian occupation.

[Oliver109]

Still way better under Belgian occupation.

Well it was still a dangerous dump, if those people hate us it is better we leave them alone and it is certainly better we stop insisting we accommodate them in France or London etc.

[Mingle]

Well it was still a dangerous dump, if those people hate us it is better we leave them alone and it is certainly better we stop insisting we accommodate them in France or London etc.

I don't care about them, was just correcting the misconception about Belgians being an oppressive force in the Congo.

[Creoda]

They're similar in terms of civic nationalism, but the Irish are much more ethnonationalistic. Englishmen put Britain ahead of England, hardly care about Saint George's day, barely fly the English flag (outside sports), don't give two hoots about reclaiming Southeast Scotland (historically English region and still English-speaking), and allowed the politically much weaker Scotland a great chance to secede (who in contrast to the English strongly value Scottish identity over British, even if they're not necessarily separatist) while the Irish still constantly talk about how Northern Ireland belongs to them and Saint Patrick's Day is a very popular holiday there. Ireland's two main parties Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin also have separatist Irish nationalist roots.

Castilians are kinda similar to the English where they are the main don't care about being Castilian and sacrifice their Castilian identity for a pan-Spanish one. Even Castilian-speaking regions with former Castilian identity are generic Spaniards now with no real ethnic identity (just a regional one) like Andalusia, Murcia, La Rioja, and Cantabria. They also call their language Spanish instead of Castilian, which is sharing their language with others. This is in stark contrast to Catalans whose democratically elected leader pushed for an independent Catalonia and their nationalists claim Valencia and the Baleares.

I don't agree with Oliver that the English are more nationalistic, the Irish are more nationalistic than most Europeans let alone English, but the English identify mostly as English before British, and if you go to towns and villages in England you are more likely to find the St George's cross hanging outside pubs than the Union Jack. The English are more Unionist and pro-British than Scottish and Welsh, and all the state institutions in England emphasise only Britishness, to appease the Scots, Welsh and Irish. Scottish and Welsh devolution was a Labour party scheme to shore up support in those countries against the left-wing 'nationalist' parties like the SNP and Plaid Cymru (which has backfired for them).

I don't think any English person considers SE Scotland as English, it hasn't been English since the High Middle Ages, may as well start talking about reclaiming Calais first (not a bad idea just quietly). One could justifiably argue British nationalism is a form of English imperialism over the Insular Celts, so there's no need for revanchism.

[Oliver109]

I don't agree with Oliver that the English are more nationalistic, the Irish are more nationalistic than most Europeans let alone English, but the English identify mostly as English before British, and if you go to towns and villages in England you are more likely to find the St George's cross hanging outside pubs than the Union Jack. The English are more Unionist and pro-British than Scottish and Welsh, and all the state institutions in England emphasise only Britishness, to appease the Scots, Welsh and Irish. Scottish and Welsh devolution was a Labour party scheme to shore up support in those countries against the left-wing 'nationalist' parties like the SNP and Plaid Cymru (which has backfired for them).

I don't think any English person considers SE Scotland as English, it hasn't been English since the High Middle Ages, may as well start talking about reclaiming Calais first (not a bad idea just quietly). One could justifiably argue British nationalism is a form of English imperialism over the Insular Celts, so there's no need for revanchism.

With the English I find that they seem to take more pride in things like cuisine, industry, music, their countryside, abroad they seem less shouty about their nationality but here I do notice a quiet but visible nationalism and the Irish nationalism seems to be more about the concept of Ireland rather than the achievements of the Irish people, Irish are more willing to call a Nigerian Irish while most people in a rural English town would never call a Nigerian descent person English.

[Creoda]

With the English I find that they seem to take more pride in things like cuisine, industry, music, their countryside, abroad they seem less shouty about their nationality but here I do notice a quiet but visible nationalism and the Irish nationalism seems to be more about the concept of Ireland rather than the achievements of the Irish people, Irish are more willing to call a Nigerian Irish while most people in a rural English town would never call a Nigerian descent person English.

I think the divide there is mostly between PC and non-PC people in both countries. English nationalism in itself has a reactionary quality that Irish nationalism doesn't since it's not the state nationalism, it's an ethnic designation against the more civic identity of British nationalism. Lefties like David Baddiel (Jewish) and Billy Bragg (half Italian) often talk about 'reclaiming Englishness from the racists'. The English are lucky to have lots of things like you mention to take a proxy national pride in, but it would be nice if it could all be synthesised into a more complete nationalism like others.

[Mingle]

I don't agree with Oliver that the English are more nationalistic, the Irish are more nationalistic than most Europeans let alone English, but the English identify mostly as English before British, and if you go to towns and villages in England you are more likely to find the St George's cross hanging outside pubs than the Union Jack. The English are more Unionist and pro-British than Scottish and Welsh, and all the state institutions in England emphasise only Britishness, to appease the Scots, Welsh and Irish. Scottish and Welsh devolution was a Labour party scheme to shore up support in those countries against the left-wing 'nationalist' parties like the SNP and Plaid Cymru (which has backfired for them).

I don't think any English person considers SE Scotland as English, it hasn't been English since the High Middle Ages, may as well start talking about reclaiming Calais first (not a bad idea just quietly). One could justifiably argue British nationalism is a form of English imperialism over the Insular Celts, so there's no need for revanchism.

I've seen that poll before. I think it's true they identify as English first, but they seem more nationalistic for their country (sovereign state) rather than their region/nation. And while Saint George's Day is celebrated, I got the impression it's not very popular. I guess I may have been mistaken.

Labour are Socialists and devolution of ethnic minority regions is a global Socialist ideology that's done almost everywhere.

You're right about Southeast Scotland (applies to the Scottish Lowlands as a whole, but the southeast is most similar). But you'd think a few English ultranationalists would care about it, especially since those types are really against Scottish independence. Just look at the ultranationalists from the Balkans for comparison. Though I agree Lowlands Scots aren't really English anymore and its rational for the English to not claim it

And I suppose you're right about British nationalism being a type of English imperialism. But as long as they don't sacrifice Englishness for Britishness, which they mostly don't.

[Mingle]

I think the divide there is mostly between PC and non-PC people in both countries. English nationalism in itself has a reactionary quality that Irish nationalism doesn't since it's not the state nationalism, it's an ethnic designation against the more civic identity of British nationalism. Lefties like David Baddiel (Jewish) and Billy Bragg (half Italian) often talk about 'reclaiming Englishness from the racists'. The English are lucky to have lots of things like you mention to take a proxy national pride in, but it would be nice if it could all be synthesised into a more complete nationalism like others.

I don't really think that's possible unless they break away England from the UK (and maybe form an economic confederation with Wales, Scotland, and Ireland). Scots, Welshmen, and Irishmen don't have the taboo of having to reign in their ethnic identity unlike the English. The former two cause of being ethnic minorities and the latter cause of being a homogenous nation where civic identity and ethnic identity are equated. If England becomes separate from the UK, then they'd be in the same position as the other nations in the British Isles.