Croatian man killed in Ireland "for speaking Croatian"

[#Oda#]

Yes, it's off topic.However, it's odd you think Prohibition was stupid but think legalization of drugs - where we can hurt the drug cartels where it matters: in their pockets - isn't a good idea. Just like the mafia the cartels get their power from public demand and an opportunity to provide the good.

That's an inconvenient thought in need of getting used to, but I have come to the conclusion it is true. The war on cocaine has been lost long time ago. Their only weak point is their pockets. That's the reality.

[CosmoLady]

In my opinion, its possible only in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic country. Sweden banned the prostitution and? They are the most insane woke country with serious mental and cultural destruction. Every democratic country start to be woke.

On the contrary, Sweden shows that even democracies can crack down on vice with public support.

The other parts of the woke society are indefensible.
But the drug policy, prostitution policy, and covid policies are all good, in spite of wokeness.

And if the problem is so concentrated in Hungary (in Budapest), then the solution is much simpler.
Any city can be cleaned up if there is popular support, AND/OR a serious government.

But this is the truth, vast majority of them are ethnic hungarians. You said you spent just few days in Budapest, do you really think you know better than me?

Right. Maybe they were clubbers.

In a 2008 study, 78% of Austrian prostitutes were migrants,
and 75% of Hungarian prostitutes were nationals (down from 80% in 2006). So you are right about this Iron Curtain!
The proportion of migrant hoes probably has continued to increase since 2008, or maybe has reached an equilibrium.
https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads...ing-Report.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20101011...g%20Report.pdf

In Czechia, 59% of prostitutes are nationals. In Poland, 66% are nationals.
In Western Euro countries, most prostitutes are migrants.

Yet there is clearly sex trafficking in Hungary (25% of prostitutes are foreign; only 2% of Budapest is foreign).

Hungary is notorious for sex trafficking of Romanians and Ukrainians,
as well as internal trafficking of poor eastern Hungarians and gypsies.
These reports are from 2008 and 2009, from before Orban, so these are not politically biased against Orban.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121008...4214b5c,0.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20090226...eur/119083.htm

And not much has changed since then? Hungary is still on the Tier 2 watch list for human trafficking.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180728...018/282670.htm

[Incal]

It was my guess. According to Stears 90% of hungarians are cuman-gypsie mix.

LMAO

[CosmoLady]

The vast majority of society don't become heroin junkies but a significant number of people that drink cause social problems, kill, etc. How many people have died from drunk drivers last year? How many drivers were killed by someone on heroin?

Drugs other than alcohol were responsible for 43.6% of fatal accidents in 2016.
Alcohol impairment is responsible for 31% of accidents. Far more people drink than use drugs, so drugs are overrepresented.
Difficult to separate though, as people often mix drugs. People on heroin or fentanyl are usually too wasted/broken to drive.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/...paired-driving
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
https://www.stopdruggeddriving.org/problem

How about Portugal? How is their legalization of drugs going?

Overdose deaths have been increasing, so have homelessness and crime.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...nted%20at%2063.
https://world-habitat.org/our-progra...eet%20homeless.
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-m...%20from%202019.

Crime is up because law enforcement has their hands tied after the death of Floyd. It's not a wave of junkies committing crimes. It's instead bottom of the barrel people taking advantage of the situation. If you won't do time for stealing less than $1000 worth of merchandise, then what a shocker when people steal.

Overdose deaths (and use of all hard drugs), homelessness and crime have been going up noticeably in woke Vancouver Canada,
since decriminalisation, which has been a visible disaster. Too many sources to list

https://www.google.com/search?q=over...-wiz-serp#ip=1
https://www.google.com/search?q=home...t=gws-wiz-serp
https://www.google.com/search?q=crim...t=gws-wiz-serp

Homeless is up because people are being priced out of renting apartments (although I'm aware most homeless are mentally ill or drug around addicts or both. It's around 70% that are drug addicts but that includes alcoholics).

Homeless drug addicts has risen in Portland and California because that is where homeless drug addicts across the country want to go because they are being catered to. If your city or state doesn't give more rights to drug addicted homeless people, they won't show up at your door. These aren't just home grown homeless drug addicts.

Drugs, crime and homelessness are worse problems in blue states and cities,
where drug use, crime, and homelessness are more tolerated, and where more welfare offices are located.
(Cost of living is a separate problem that is also much worse in blue cities and states.)

Drug decriminalisation/legalisation also has a noticeable impact on public safety and quality of life,
as I mentioned with Vancouver, Canada.

Yes, it's off topic. However, it's odd you think Prohibition was stupid

Alcohol prohibition may seem good in theory (reducing alcoholism and associated social problems),
but anyone can see that the practical enforcement is impossible at the state and national levels in the US,
due to widespread alcohol use and tradition of drinking, thus criminalising all normal people. Geography is very unhelpful too.

but think legalization of drugs - where we can hurt the drug cartels where it matters: in their pockets - isn't a good idea. Just like the mafia the cartels get their power from public demand and an opportunity to provide the good.

Drug use and addiction is something relatively recent and totally abnormal (unlike alcohol),
no good comes from it, for the individual or society, except maybe for people with severe chronic pain.

Few people use drugs compared to alcohol. And drug use can be reduced successfully if the country is serious.

For example, drug use disorder (and deaths) are very low in Singapore or Japan, despite the urbanised and wealthy population.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...-disorders-who

It's failing because it's understood the public wants what the public wants and so the CIA, etc. wants a piece of the action.

The US has a much bigger drug use problem, proportionally, than other countries, which is sad.
(compare to China, India, Japan, most Latin American countries)

Tolerating widespread drug addiction is a CHOICE. Your country DOES NOT have to be this way.

I think that the CIA has allowed drug trafficking since the 1980s at least, for various reasons.

But even with these incoherent policies,
most (not all) forms of drug use in the US have declined significantly since 1979 when measurement started.

There was a 50% reduction in drug use between 1979 and 2005.
For various reasons: aggressive law enforcement and prosecution, "mass incarceration", & maybe anti-drug cultural change

https://rehabs.com/blog/most-popular...-us-by-decade/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15520/D...p-Worries.aspx

Everyone has a right to defend themselves and be allowed to have the means to defend themselves, would you agree?

Yes I agree,
so I support minimally restricted gun ownership in most large countries,
including in the US where it is constitutionally protected.

In other more vulnerable countries though,
gun ownership should be more restricted (not totally illegal) for practical security reasons.

And in some Asian countries, gun ownership is unnecessary. The population quality is much higher.
And there is no tradition of gun ownership, and people are safe with a state that is serious and fully functional.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Drugs other than alcohol were responsible for 43.6% of fatal accidents in 2016.
Alcohol impairment is responsible for 31% of accidents. Far more people drink than use drugs, so drugs are overrepresented.
Difficult to separate though, as people often mix drugs. People on heroin or fentanyl are usually too wasted/broken to drive.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/...paired-driving
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
https://www.stopdruggeddriving.org/problem

That drugs are overrepresented (considering less people take drugs than drink) doesn't negate that drunk driving is a serious problem. I assume most of those drug related vehicle deaths are from speed? (People don't have time to go through every link. In the future you should quote relevant parts). It's certaiy not heroin. So we can say someone on heroin is less dangerous to others than if he was drunk or took some other kind of drug (speed, most likely).

Overdose deaths have been increasing, so have homelessness and crime.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...nted%20at%2063.
https://world-habitat.org/our-progra...eet%20homeless.
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-m...%20from%202019.

I'm aware heroin addiction has increased in Portugal. However, this ignores the remarkable drop since 2001 and that the rise is connected to the Portuguese government cutting the policy's budget by half.

Overdose deaths (and use of all hard drugs), homelessness, and crime have been going up noticeably in woke Vancouver, Canada,
since decriminalisation, which has been a visible disaster.

https://www.google.com/search?q=over...-wiz-serp#ip=1
https://www.google.com/search?q=home...t=gws-wiz-serp
https://www.google.com/search?q=crim...t=gws-wiz-serp

I don't know their policy.

Drugs, crime and homelessness are worse problems in blue states and cities,
where drug use, crime, and homelessness are more tolerated, and where more welfare offices are located.

You mean California and New York? States that don't punish people for shoplifting any more? Where you can be arrested multiple times for stealing and assaulting people and be out on the the street in 24 hours? You're trying to make an argument by pretending this is all connected to drugs. Most homeless people are mentally ill people who cope with their mental health issues with substance abuse. The shoplifting problem isn't a consequence of higher drug abuse than before but because people know they won't go to prison for stealing less than $1000 of merchandise.

Drug decriminalisation/legalisation has a noticeable impact on public safety and quality of life,
as I mentioned with Vancouver, Canada.

I don't know anything about Vancouver.

I'll respond to the rest later.

Alcohol prohibition may seem good in theory (reducing alcoholism and associated social problems),
but anyone can see that the practical enforcement is impossible at the state and national levels in the US,
due to widespread alcohol use and tradition of drinking, thus criminalising all normal people. Geography is very unhelpful too.


Drug use and addiction is something relatively recent and totally abnormal (unlike alcohol),
no good comes from it, for the individual or society, except maybe for people with severe chronic pain.

Few people use drugs compared to alcohol. And drug use can be reduced successfully if the country is serious.

For example, drug use disorder (and deaths) are very low in Singapore or Japan, despite the urbanised and wealthy population.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...-disorders-who



The US has a much bigger drug use problem, proportionally, than other countries, which is sad.
(compare to China, India, Japan, most Latin American countries)

Tolerating widespread drug addiction is a CHOICE. Your country DOES NOT have to be this way.

I think that the CIA has allowed drug trafficking since the 1980s at least, for various reasons.

But even with these incoherent policies,
most (not all) forms of drug use in the US have declined significantly since 1979 when measurement started.

There was a 50% reduction in drug use between 1979 and 2005.
For various reasons: aggressive law enforcement and prosecution, "mass incarceration", & maybe anti-drug cultural change

https://rehabs.com/blog/most-popular...-us-by-decade/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15520/D...p-Worries.aspx



Yes I agree,
so I support minimally restricted gun ownership in most large countries,
including in the US where it is constitutionally protected.

In other more vulnerable countries though,
gun ownership should be more restricted (not totally illegal) for practical security reasons.

And in some Asian countries, gun ownership is unnecessary. The population quality is much higher.
And there is no tradition of gun ownership, and people are safe with a state that is serious and fully functional.

[Aldaris]

In a 2008 study, 78% of Austrian prostitutes were migrants,
and 75% of Hungarian prostitutes were nationals (down from 80% in 2006). So you are right about this. The Iron Curtain!
The proportion of migrant hoes probably has continued to increase since 2008, or maybe has reached an equilibrium.
https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads...ing-Report.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20101011...g%20Report.pdf

In Czechia, 59% of prostitutes are nationals. In Poland, 66% are nationals.
In Western Euro countries, most prostitutes are migrants.

I wonder how the recent numbers would look. Since 2008 until now, there has actually been a decrease in the ratio of nationals to migrants in the region. That may sound somewhat positive, but it still doesn't say anything about the absolute numbers.

[CosmoLady]

You mean California and New York? States that don't punish people for shoplifting any more? Where you can be arrested multiple times for stealing and assaulting people and be out on the the street in 24 hours? You're trying to make an argument by pretending this is all connected to drugs. Most homeless people are mentally ill people who cope with their mental health issues with substance abuse. The shoplifting problem isn't a consequence of higher drug abuse than before but because people know they won't go to prison for stealing less than $1000 of merchandise.

Drug overdose deaths have increased in blue states, as well as in British Columbia.
Decriminalising drugs is like decriminalising shoplifting, as you can see. The consequences are predictable.
Drug addiction has increased, not surprisingly so has homelessness.
Robberies, burglaries, carjackings, assaults, murders, rapes have all increased, separate from shoplifting.
These are not due to alcoholism, because alcohol consumption is decreasing: https://news.gallup.com/poll/353858/...-readings.aspx
I never said that drugs are THE primary reason for this, but they are certainly a contributing factor.
So are de-policing and mass migration. (decriminalisation is a form of de-policing of drug laws)

But drug use, overdoses, crime and homelessness are also increasing in Vancouver (that did not have de-policing) post-legalisation,
suggesting that drugs are a significant factor.

That drugs are overrepresented (considering less people take drugs than drink) doesn't negate that drunk driving is a serious problem. I assume most of those drug related vehicle deaths are from speed? (People don't have time to go through every link. In the future you should quote relevant parts). It's certaiy not heroin. So we can say someone on heroin is less dangerous to others than if he was drunk or took some other kind of drug (speed, most likely).

Every drug is dangerous in different ways, I cannot say which is worst, car accidents are not the only way to measure.

There are 43,000 annual fatal crashes (drugs, alcohol) and 108,000 annual fatal drug overdoses.
Obviously overdoses are a greater problem, both proportionally and overall, but this does not minimise car accidents.
178,000 alcohol-related illness deaths (including car accidents), unknown # of drug-related illness deaths.
70,000 annual "drug use deaths" according to the IHME and WHO
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...-use-disorders
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...-disorders-ghe
Only 15,000 annual "alcohol disorder deaths" according to the IHME and WHO, obviously very different way of measuring.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...ance-disorders
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...-disorders-who

I'm aware heroin addiction has increased in Portugal. However, this ignores the remarkable drop since 2001 and that the rise is connected to the Portuguese government cutting the policy's budget by half.

Decriminalisation should not require a budget.
The rate of drug addiction has to do with other things:
the price of drugs, law enforcement, incarceration, the conservatism of the society, the quality of the population, etc.

[oszkar07]

Very lame and cliched statement. You accuse of "hypocrisy" but have no examples of such.

Strawman argument, projection. Bad faith debating style.

I already repeatedly made a distinction between coerced and non-coerced prostitutes,
which you repeatedly ignore because you are dishonest.

But they go up and down together because they sell the same product and are part of the same market.


I never mentioned men or blaming anyone, as I already said.

Again, strawman argument, projection, bad faith debating. Dishonesty?


Asian and Middle Eastern countries have far less drug addiction and use overall, even if it is "underground".

Who cares if it is underground? Less drug addiction overall is undoubtedly a good thing for society.
More drug addiction, on the other hand, is a visible disaster, as I have seen.

Drugs cannot be completely eliminated (without turning into North Korea), but the effort is noble and the benefit is visible.


No YOU are, because you are always projecting.


Yes I already repeated that like 20 times, you are not making any point at all.


I did not mention or consider stigma, you did. Again, projection, dishonest debating style.


Lame, meaningless statement.


You are extremely dishonest. No one said that.

Cosmo i can hardly be bothered but for all your claims of projection and dishonest bla bla bla if I could be bothered to go through all the back and forth posting I could demonstrate that you have misquoted me on several occasions also that you have taken something I said and actually agreed with it but wrote your response as if I had said the opposite - eg like when you started saying "on the contrary" but then basically said what I had already said in a different way and made out as if I was saying something different.

Hence to me your responses are neither in that sense accurate or honest responses to all the things I have said.
and before anyone had raised or mentioned trafficking/coercian I was the first to mention and acknowledge those issues which I stated were not central to the point I made, but then those things you took and made them central to your discussion as if you were telling something that I had not already acknowledged and stated and which was not central to the point i was making which was discussion of women that were in the industry of their own accord without being trafficked or coerced, to which then you went on to reffer to such women as "Dumb hoes" that need to be stopped for there own good.


Anyway I could care less about your big fonts and bold type faces and simp upvoter.

[CosmoLady]

Cosmo i can hardly be bothered but for all your claims of projection and dishonest bla bla bla if I could be bothered to go through all the back and forth posting I could demonstrate that you have misquoted me on several occasions also that you have taken something I said and actually agreed with it but wrote your response as if I had said the opposite - eg like when you started saying "on the contrary" but then basically said what I had already said in a different way and made out as if I was saying something different.

Hence to me your responses are neither in that sense accurate or honest responses to all the things I have said.
and before anyone had raised or mentioned trafficking/coercian I was the first to mention and acknowledge those issues which I stated were not central to the point I made, but then those things you took and made them central to your discussion as if you were telling something that I had not already acknowledged and stated and which was not central to the point i was making which was discussion of women that were in the industry of their own accord without being trafficked or coerced, to which then you went on to reffer to such women as "Dumb hoes" that need to be stopped for there own good.


Anyway I could care less about your big fonts and bold type faces and simp upvoter.

LOL, everything you say is so lame, banal, cliched and barely coherent, you stopped saying anything meaningful long ago.

[Scarface F]

But public health issues are much better in Sweden than in Hungary, the Swedish population is much healthier.

Correct.

I loathe Sweden, but facts are facts.