Croatian man killed in Ireland "for speaking Croatian"

[CosmoLady]

See you are doing it again oszkar. Instead of discussing the subject you are accusing people like me that disagree as virtue signalling and that I DO NOTHING. You need to argue to the topic. We are discussing prostitution which I have very strong views about. It's not a argument to say oh well you don't agree but you DO NOTHING. If you disagree with something is your answer to that to criticise the person and tell them they are bitching and moaning and that they do nothing? It's a discussion oszkar. You should be debating the topic not using those type of tactics with people. Anyway as I've said numerous times on here I don't attack or criticise the person making the argument and I also don't hold animosity if people disagree with me. It makes people think. We should be mature enough to discuss these controversial topics without getting personal with people. Also when people disagree with something then that doesn't mean that because they oppose something they have to fix it.

There is no reason for a man to be so interested in the subject, unless he is a punter making excuses for his own behaviour.

So it is pointless to discuss with him,

as it is to discuss drug laws with someone who is/was a shameless drug user or enabler making excuses for his own behaviour.

I am not judging the punter or drug user, I am saying that you cannot have an objective discussion with them.
Normal men could not care less and are able to be detached, intellectual.

[Creoda]

The problem in not women or a hive-mind mentality but men's views about women and prostitution feeds into that i.e. objectifying women and the idea that you can pay for a woman's body. Sex workers are overwhelmingly female and the "buyers" are overwhelmingly male of both female and male prostitutes.

The problem of irrationality and hive-mindedness goes beyond the debate about prostitution. It's a major reason why our Western political discourse is so insane now. "The idea that you can pay for a woman's body" comes from the reality that some women are willing to sell their body. Moreover many more women willingly objectify themselves in media or real life for male attention/money, without being prostitutes. You will probably say this is 'the patriarchy' forcing them to, but it's mainly just the inevitable sexual dynamics of a society with rampant liberalism and permissiveness, and I blame both genders for that.

They are different situations. With drugs it makes sense to prosecute the suppliers who are bringing in the drugs but with prostitution when this was studied and with input from police the theory is law enforcement focusing attention on sex buyers will reduce the demand which strangles the sex industry and limits human trafficking. This does seem to be working in some countries.

From a utilitarian perspective there is no way that banning only buying sex is more effective in curtailing prostitution than banning both buying and selling. From a moral perspective it is fundamentally unjust that two people can have a business transaction and only the buyer be prosecuted for it (even though it might be the prostitute's 10th client of the week), and comes from the insane feminist ideology that women are always victims, and men are always victimisers. If you truly believe prostitution should be illegal then you should support the prosecution of everybody willingly involved in it, anything else is a glaring double standard.

There has been research on these topics which show otherwise. Regarding porn for instance there has been quite a few studies.



https://www.womensforumaustralia.org...%20likely%20to

Also with prostitution violence is the norm for women involved in that "service". And the link is that buying sex makes men more prone to violence against women.



https://www.hhrjournal.org/2020/12/u...d-legislation/



https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-abo...against-women/

Again those studies will be talking about correlations, not proof that prostitution/porn is causing an overall increase in those behaviours. I don't need a study to tell me that men who employ hookers or watch violent porn are going to be more prone to crime or anti-social behaviour on average, it's obvious. I believe that porn is overall decreasing sexual activity/aggression because people are being satisfied by videos rather than other people, and it is perhaps the main reason for the massive increase in young people not having sex. That is a bigger concern anyhow than the dubious assertion that it causes misogyny. Prostitution is also an outlet for fucked-up men to act out their desires where they might otherwise do so on non-prostitutes.

Anyway I don't know how anyone can't see the problems with prostitution and porn. There are very few women that do this type of thing when they have other options. Despite what some are saying people the research does not support that women are doing porn and prostitution and enjoying it.

I see the problems with it, just not the same ones you do. Lets agree to disagree on that because I have no desire to defend anyone willingly involved in prostitution or porn. Whether or not they're enjoying it doesn't matter, most people don't particularly enjoy their jobs; the only thing that matters is consent.

[Daco Celtic]

RiP. I've found the Irish to be the most hospitable people on earth so this comes as a disappointment. I assume he was there to visit the historic 8th-century round tower, the focal point for Clondalkin.

"The tower may have been built to house the relics of St. Mochua or Crónán, who founded the monastery of Clondalkin in the
late 5th Century. It is now accepted that one of the the main functions of a round tower was the safety and veneration of the relics of the monastery's founder."

[Creoda]

Now think well Grace you are expecting us to see you as a sensitive compassionate person and so far you described the victimness of the your perception of the women - but what about that guy , oh well you say he was stupid and it was his fault, ok sure, but dont you think that perhaps the hooker that took his money may have been not a stupid person, thats its a good chance that she knows many men come to her and spend more than they should and perhaps like that guy his wages that should have been to provide for his famly, ok you say not her business she needed the money you say , tough shit you say, but then now
we can consider things from all different angles cant we, perhaps then someone might say oh well all is fair in love and war or "it all comes out in the wash" but chances are she knew he may have been over spending and what impacts it may have had but did she care ? he was just another number to her, in reality he was also a "human being -even if he did something stupid" as is she, but to her he was another number as you say she was perhaps another number to men right ? Perhaps then someone might there is different ways to measure and balance and calculate things.

Grace apparently likes the policy of some countries that prostitutes can legally lure men into crime, and profit from it! Miss Havisham wouldn't be so callous

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace apparently likes the policy of some countries that prostitutes can legally lure men into crime, and profit from it! Miss Havisham wouldn't be so callous

Anything that works. There has been different methods tried. If it was all about consent but it isn't and everyone knows that. Organised crime is heavily involved in prostitution and people trafficking. The whole business is shady as fuck.

[Grace O'Malley]

Prostitution will exist as long as men sexual needs are not properly satisfied. The fact there's not much demand for sexual workers in places like Sweden or Iceland is not really due to the ban but because the local women will fuck any dude before he can even finish saying hello. Such measures would never work in the southern hemisphere.

It's only reduced since they started prosecuting men and also most of the prostitutes are foreign women. How do you know about Swedish women? Have you tried your luck there?

[Grace O'Malley]

You have a view that is two fold, meaning that it is a combination of 1) (to some extent valid objective data) and
2) very much your subjective biases and outlook. The subjective aspect can over fixate and over exxagerate aspects of the objective data.
Most humans will have a cognitive bias to things depending on their own person ex;eriences and feelings,worldview etc.

I have a multifaceted view, i said it in earlier post "mixed feelings".

On one hand I can feel incredibly sorry for the women who are trafficked or come from places of poverty where for them there may not be any
other options.

In another way I can see that there are a range of people in all different types of circumstances such as that there are women in the free world that completely choose to do some form of sex work even if only for a certain time in their life.

In another sense I can even resent those ones that do it of their own free will, that they are complicit in continuing this trade of vice, that they get rich from it ,yes some of them do earn incredible amounts of money believe it or not.

Many years ago when I visited Hungary , I was in the Capital and had a conversation with a guy that was older than me and the topic came up that there was a lot of prostitution in some parts of the city. The guy relayed a story he said " yeh its a terrible thing, said sometimes a married man goes out gets drunk at the pub then afterwards see's a hooker and spends in one night all of his wages that he would have needed to provide for his wife and kids. Ok sure we can rightfully say the guy acted incredibly irresponsibe that he got drunk lost control in the moment and blew all his wages , now we know people at casino's who are hopeless gamblers do the same thing many times. Now think well Grace you are expecting us to see you as a sensitive compassionate person and so far you described the victimness of the your perception of the women - but what about that guy , oh well you say he was stupid and it was his fault, ok sure, but dont you think that perhaps the hooker that took his money may have been not a stupid person, thats its a good chance that she knows many men come to her and spend more than they should and perhaps like that guy his wages that should have been to provide for his famly, ok you say not her business she needed the money you say , tough shit you say, but then now
we can consider things from all different angles cant we, perhaps then someone might say oh well all is fair in love and war or "it all comes out in the wash" but chances are she knew he may have been over spending and what impacts it may have had but did she care ? he was just another number to her, in reality he was also a "human being -even if he did something stupid" as is she, but to her he was another number as you say she was perhaps another number to men right ? Perhaps then someone might there is different ways to measure and balance and calculate things.

I dont think Prostitution is great , I dont actually have a high oppinion of Prostitutes to be honest.
But I dont think all of them are victims, I think some of them are very aware of what they do and they do it of their free will- that is true for online porno industry too specifically independent pornographers, and this is why I see some of the arguments around the topic as hypocritical.
On the other hand there is for sure a good proportion of them that are very much in a position that they had little choice for (but not all of them )

I don't care about people seeing me as a sensitive caring person?? I just have views on things and with prostitution it is a dirty, corrupt industry that I think caters to men that are pretty lowlife themselves. And yes if a man is willing to spend his money on a prostitute he deserves what he gets. He's a stupid fool especially as he has a family to support. What a dickhead.

There are cases of men going with women for sex who end up with a knock on the head and getting their money stolen because she has a bloke up in the room she is in cahoots with.

I don't know if I can be much clearer. It is an unsavoury business and any halfway decent man wouldn't be using prostitutes. There is a heavily criminal element involved in prostitution. How do you know who is behind the brothel you frequent?

Instead of me doing what you suggest i.e. to personally confront prostitutes (which is just laughable, not likely to work and could possibly be dangerous to me) and let's be honest we are just having a discussion on the topic and no one is expecting this issue to disappear but hopefully with discussion and education of people attitudes can change. This has happened in the past. Look at how smoking has reduced and who would have thought that would have been possible 30 years ago?

The times and attitudes change. You might think it is impossible but I certainly don't. To me I find it difficult to comprehend that there are people that think it is okay to buy someone's body for sex. That type of attitude can definitely be changed.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting as I'm just reading now about the increase in Vietnamese women coming illegally into the UK. They are mostly women which is bucking the trend as usually with illegal immigrants more than three quarters are male. Border Force think these women are coming to the UK for prostitution purposes. Anyway what is also interesting is that they are coming in via Hungary which is now a popular transit country due to Hungary issuing more visas to Southeast Asians. I though Hungary was not accepting of immigrants? Anyway here is the link from The Times but for people it might be behind a paywall as I'm a subscriber.

Ministers and officials have identified Hungary as a popular transit country that has emerged over recent months. They believe that a new visa agreement signed between Hungary and Vietnam to make it easier for Vietnamese migrants to get jobs in the central European country has driven a sharp increase in numbers travelling to the UK. The agreement was designed to help fill vacancies in construction, agriculture and food processing industries in Hungary.

However, the Home Office believes that a significant proportion of migrants who have taken advantage of the new route have used it as a backdoor into the EU’s Schengen zone, which allows border-free travel between 27 European countries.

They are then travelling to northern France, where they are paying criminal gangs to smuggle them to the UK in small boats and in the back of lorries.

A UK government source said: “What has been happening is lots of Vietnamese women are leaving Vietnam perfectly legally to countries in Europe, in particular Hungary because they have upped the volume of migrant worker visas.

“They arrive in Europe into Schengen and some of those abandon all plans to work in the job they got a visa for and then pay smugglers to ferry them across to Britain but in doing so they enter debt bondage with criminal gangs.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/v...ally-ch7mm0zq9

[Petalpusher]

It's always gonna be more difficult to effectively ban since it's immaterial as opposed to lets say drugs. You can seize drug , there is no reason to posess large quantity of powder without trafficking it, etc.. whereas prostitution is always more contentious. It's just adults consenting to a transaction often tacitly and it's becoming a "spectrum" too.

As far as i know human trafficking is illegal everywhere and street prostitution is dwarfed by other means nowadays. Banning it just prevent proletarians to access sex this way. Everything beyond that already found a way around it. From prostitutes to escorts, sugar babies, instagram "models", only fan creators, it's all new forms of prostitutions that won't be regulated easily and are considered in a political way, somehow progressively acceptable.

You can say that the greatest achievement of feminists will have been to put every women on a level ground with prostitutes. You walk in most of London or Manchester at night you have no idea who is a prostitute or not at first sight. They dress the same, act and talk the same. Actually the best way to sort this out is that actual prostitutes might dress more modestly and are not as odd. Might be the future everywhere else too. Very progress.

[oszkar07]

See you are doing it again oszkar. Instead of discussing the subject you are accusing people like me that disagree as virtue signalling and that I DO NOTHING. You need to argue to the topic. We are discussing prostitution which I have very strong views about. It's not a argument to say oh well you don't agree but you DO NOTHING. If you disagree with something is your answer to that to criticise the person and tell them they are bitching and moaning and that they do nothing? It's a discussion oszkar. You should be debating the topic not using those type of tactics with people. Anyway as I've said numerous times on here I don't attack or criticise the person making the argument and I also don't hold animosity if people disagree with me. It makes people think. We should be mature enough to discuss these controversial topics without getting personal with people. Also when people disagree with something then that doesn't mean that because they oppose something they have to fix it.

I don't care about people seeing me as a sensitive caring person?? I just have views on things and with prostitution it is a dirty, corrupt industry that I think caters to men that are pretty lowlife themselves

So only the men are lowlifes not the women ?
I suppose the women in your eyes are just poor victims whom are either mental - trafficked - poor - or in some other way that you rationalise are less culpable than the men and somehow have less than 100% responsibility for their actions.
Or perhaps , they just had Bills piling Up !

Based on all the things you have said that very much appears to be your take on it in a nutshell (after all your thoughts/responses as shown above have so far been extremely predictable to me -like im reading your mind like a book lol)

Instead of me doing what you suggest i.e. to personally confront prostitutes (which is just laughable, not likely to work and could possibly be dangerous to me)

Well if you are more comfortable not having your views potentially challenged by women who work in the industry I suppose its better you don't , but please go ahead and keep speaking on their behalf.

I am actually not the person who started getting personal, Im usually calm but when attacked I can be a little different (yet still calm)

I see you care so much about the topic and that is why I wonder that if you care that much then why are you not doing something about it.

I have some mixed feelings about it but I dont have specifically strong strong views about it.

If we are going to make lists about all the things that are less than ideal in this world , or where there is suffering and greed and all kinds of pleasures and pains.

It will be a never ending list.

But from all the things that could be listed if Prostitution is the thing that stands out so much for you, then you can always become some kind of activist.
I doubt conversing here about it will make much difference either way.

What is my oppinon then you ask ?

As I said I dont think overall it is great either, but nor do I think ALL that do it are victims - if everyone has some level of choice to make themselves a victim of something they who choose it are not more victims than anyone else in this thing called life really.

Should it be banned in my oppinion ?

Banning it wont stop it, it seems to be one of those things that for whatever reason is deeply connected to the human condition as strange as that may sound it also seems to be true.

ob la di ob la da
life goes on brah
la la how the life goes on