Croatian man killed in Ireland "for speaking Croatian"

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace many many times in my life where I have had a load of Debts in my life and it was a really difficult situation that i had to work out how to manage.

But as difficult as it ever was, i would have never contemplated selling myself to get that money.

We all have choices , i accept that some women prostitute themselves of there free will because it provides more money than many other regular jobs

Not only paying bills piling up Grace , you are way under thinking it , you got some those girls buying BMW's and houses , anyways i suppose i will let my words be sweet and say, good luck to them ! , what ever they do it is not really any of my business.



If bills piling up wasnt bad enough now they are suddenly victims of a crime ?
what crime ? yes technically in places where Prostitution is illegal it will be a crime for both service provider and customer but technically it is not otherwise a criminal offense where it is legalised.

Ive worked with people that have mental health issues ,given the statistics on how many people experience child abuse I have most likely worked with people whom are victims of child abuse, Ive known several people that have struggled with drug addiction.

Those are all actually quite common issues in society, extremely common and statistics will indicate that. We may not know from all various professions how many people in different professions have experienced those issues however I would suspect it is quite a lot.
Not every female or male that has experienced those issues becomes a prostitute although for sure it can be a factor.

If you really care about these things and wish to make a difference for the poor high class hookers with their bills piling up, perhaps you could go and speak with the high class prostitutes in your local area and see if you can get them to stop working as prostitutes,

Perhaps if you could get them a reasonable and respectable job working as a bank teller they might stop their $5000 dollar a week job as an escort to earn $700 a week as a bank teller, you never know you might be able to do it , worth a try.

That's a daft response if you really care you need to go out and talk to prostitutes and get them a job. What kind of argument is that? So you can't discuss the topic unless you can fix the problem?

High class, low class it's immaterial they are still selling themselves for some creep to stick their cock in and use them as a dumpster. (Yes it's horrible). And just because you can make more money selling your body than doing a honest day's work for a lot less money is of course why some of these women do this type of work. It still doesn't make it okay? You can make a load of money being a hitman as well. Child abuse is also common unfortunately. People would meet someone like that every day. How do we stop all this abuse? Domestic abuse is another issue. People need to start speaking out in everyday conversation and not condoning people abusing others. Whether there is money involved or not and whether people admit it or not the fact that people are paying money is the reason why women will sell their bodies to be abused. Oh well, people say, they are doing it willingly and it is their right. Well selling your vagina or arse is because mostly men are paying for this and it is devaluing a person and making them a commodity and there is no way that person is going to feel good about themselves from doing that line of work.

People who engage in sex work present with unique vulnerabilities for numerous health issues. In addition to being at increased risk of experiencing sexually transmitted infections and blood borne viruses such as HIV/AIDS or hepatitis [1738–1741], sex workers are at increased risk of experiencing both AOD and mental health conditions [1742]. Previous international studies from the UK and US have estimated that among people who use AOD, a history of sex work ranges between 31 – 51% of women and 8 – 19% of men, with an estimated 41% of women and 11% of men engaging in sex work in the past year [1739, 1743]. Internationally, these rates appear to be higher among people attending AOD treatment than people who use AOD in the general population [1739, 1743]. Compared to Australians who inject drugs who have never engaged in sex work, sex workers in Australia who inject drugs also are more likely to start using AOD at a younger age, and have more AOD-related problems [1744].

There is also evidence of poor mental health among sex workers, including high rates of depression, psychosis, anxiety, suicide attempts, and mental health treatment [1739, 1745]. However, estimates vary based on whether a person is engaged in sex work that is considered legal as opposed to illegal sex work. Compared to licensed brothel workers and private operators, people who engage in illegal sex work are four times more likely to present with mental health problems in Australia, and these increased rates of mental health problems are associated with more adverse experiences prior to entering the industry [1746]. Trauma exposure is almost universal among Australian sex workers (99%) [1747] with estimates of violence against sex workers ranging between 45-75% [1748]. A higher incidence of violence has also been found among street-based sex workers compared with other types of sex workers (e.g., indoor) [1749, 1750].

https://comorbidityguidelines.org.au...l%20sex%20work.

Who’s Selling Sex
Some freely choose to sell sex. It’s far more common for people to do it to survive or because they’ve been tricked, coerced, or forced to by sex traffickers who target vulnerable people. This includes those without strong support networks, facing financial strain, who have experienced violence in the past, and who are marginalized by society. As a result, LGBTQ+ and Black girls are at particular risk for sexual exploitation. Many stay stuck in the sex trade into adulthood.

Most people who’ve sold sex say they started when they were minors, wanted a way out, and were harmed by it. Research conducted with them confirms that few get enjoyment from performing sexual acts on men they can’t reject.

https://www.caase.org/mental-health-...-of-sex-trade/

So do people here believe the studies and literature on the topic which involve large numbers of prostitutes or do they think their anecdotal stories about women doing prostituting because they like sex and women do it because they enjoy it are correct? There must be something wrong with me that I don't believe women enjoy being prostitutes? Yes I personally have a problem because I believe prostitution is degrading and harmful to the people that engage in it.

[Sylvanas]

Sell your body to anyone who has money so he can use it? Hahhahhah, no thanks. Yeah, very "empowering"... If they love sex, they can find men they are attracted to, without degrading themselves. Those very young brainwashed girls that think it is their "free will" and "easy money", are not aware that they worth much more, fake feminism. No true self respect.

[Blondie]

There is money involved. It's not like they are doing it because as you said "they love sex". You think someone who sells themselves for money and has to have sex with all sorts of men truly is enjoying this? Sorry but to me to enjoy being abused like that shows some dysfunction in the person. There are issues there. If want to to believe some spiel from someone prostituting themselves they are doing it because they enjoy it then you will believe anything. It is not my business what two adults do in bed but prostitution is not something that people should ignore. It is controlled by pimps and crime gangs and many women are trafficked. If legalising it does not stop this. You are using the example of women that say they enjoy it and that it is not necessarily bad for the girls. Well I don't agree it is not bad for them and many that have chosen to do prostitution will tell you honestly that it is degrading and dangerous work.

Most prostitutes do not enjoy it. The point is even if there are women than are happy to sell their bodies I still will not support it and think it is perfectly fine. Even if prostitutes don't end up dead many are beaten up and not truly in it because they chose to be. We have very different views on the topic but I think it exploits women for money and once you start treating humans as some "thing" you can buy and sell it is a slippery slope. Yes I must have a problem if I don't believe a woman really enjoys selling herself to be a object that is used by multiple men. It must be so empowering for these women? I truly believe they really enjoy that?

Okay what do you think how many people enjoy their workplace? Most of them hate it, they hate to wake up at early morning, they hate the collegues who bullying them, they hate their idiot boss and so on, and they do it for much less money. Tons of other job is connecting to mafia or drugs, tons of average people have been humiliated by others day by day in the regular workplaces or schools. So we must ban everything, right? Why do you stop at sex work?

I think banning the prostitution is not the solution. We must pursue only the criminal side of this industry. Just like if there are bullies at school, it does not mean that we must ban the complete school system, but we must pursue only bullies.

[Creoda]

I think these things affect all women.

In the sense that a butterfly wafting its wings might eventually affect everyone, perhaps.

I don't think prostitution is a victimless crime. I think it says a lot about society.

It's currently not a crime in Australia, or most of Europe, however it is illegal across the Muslim world. Does that say something? Muslims respect women but Westerners don't? The fact that it's been commonplace throughout human history says more about humanity than any society. Something very unprofound.

I also think it is complicated and know that many women involved in prostitution have a lot of issues i.e. mental health, victims of child abuse, drug addicts

And many customers of prostitutes will also have those issues, doesn't make it OK to engage in, let alone make it your profession.

I also think prostitution and porn have ramifications for all women. There are an awful lot of men who view women derogatorily.

Is there definite proof of a causal link between those things and men viewing women negatively? And is that the only thing to be concerned about? Lots of people have argued that the opposite forced sexual repression in the Muslim world and India causes them to treat women more negatively than Western men. And you can look at our own deeply religious and repressed Medieval and Early Modern European history, and the views of women then compared to now. Something to consider.

Famously they use to give porn to Abo's in the Northern Territory to cut down on the amount of rape there, must have been somewhat effective.

I've read a lot about the subject and I personally know a woman whose daughter, a very pretty girl, got involved in drugs and prostitution and was murdered at 21. There's a lot more horrible outcomes from prostitution and no good ones. Most of prostitution is controlled by a lot of dangerous people. Anyway I've made my views on the topic known. I abhor prostitution and pornography.

There's no doubt they are seedy and disgusting businesses and have an overall negative impact on society, wouldn't disagree with you one bit there.

[oszkar07]

So if you found out that your daughter, or your mother, or your wife is prostituting herself willingly, would you still be saying "good luck to them, whatever they do it is not really any of my business"?

Because I can't help but feel like most of you guys who claim to be in favour of prostitution would hyocritically flip the script if a case hit close to home.

Actually I have not said that I am in favour of prostitution
I did say I have mixed feelings about it.
I agree in many respects it does not seem good especially for women who are trafficked and otherwise impoverished without any choices,

However it appears to be the case that not all sex workers are forced into prostitution or are from broken homes in which it was there only trajectory.

There are women that have periodically used the option of prostitution in their lives when it was suitable for them.
Some university/college students do it as a side job to pay their fee's and living expenses maybe help pay off a car loan.
To that point a girl who is doing a university/college course is likely to be functional enough to potentially work in various regular jobs albeit
a clothes shop, a bank, a restaurant , all the typical jobs many students do ... so why do some choose instead to work as a prostitute is it because they came from a broken home and they are a hopeless victim or is it maybe that working in a brothel they can earn in one shift the same amount the other jobs would take them a week to earn also that the brothel work offers them flexibility and control that they are not under the strict control of a boss and that they have some power over how much they can earn. I mean there are so many factors but its easy to go with all the old fashioned broken home drug addict assumptions right ?

Alenka what ever people decide to do i hope they think well about it in every way and make a smart decision.
However the decisions of others , people in society - prostitutes -young women - onlyfans models - who ever it is, there life and their decisions are independent to me.
In other words for the most part what they decide to do is "none of my buisiness" (i can have my feelings or oppinions) but when i say its none of my buisiness good luck to them, in a way oddly enough im trying to say in more or less neutral aspect i dont wish them any harm - its their life -i dont wish to be mean spirited to put it in another way.

To your other question, concerning family I mean we all know the answers to those questions right.
Those are retorical questions and yet every parent does their best but you have limited control over what your family do when they become adults.

[Grace O'Malley]

Okay what do you think how many people enjoy their workplace? Most of them hate it, they hate to wake up at early morning, they hate the collegues who bullying them, they hate their idiot boss and so on, and they do it for much less money. Tons of other job is connecting to mafia or drugs, tons of average people have been humiliated by others day by day in the regular workplaces or schools. So we must ban everything, right? Why do you stop at sex work?

I think banning the prostitution is not the solution. We must pursue only the criminal side of this industry. Just like if there are bullies at school, it does not mean that we must ban the complete school system, but we must pursue only bullies.

Lots of people hate their work but I don't see the connection to prostitution. If I work as a checkout chick it is not going to have the negative connotations that prostitution has. Do you not see prostitution as degrading?

Anyway I don't know what works? What makes women safer is always the best option. Even when prostitution is legal it still does not stop street prostitution and women getting into cars which is extremely dangerous. In some countries now they are making it a crime to pay for prostitution but not for women to sell themselves.

What is interesting when looking at some of this is that in Western countries most of the sex workers are foreign. So what does that say about the prostitution trade? The same thing across all western European countries? Why don't the locals want to engage in prostitution?

63.Another evaluation commissioned by the Swedish Government was published in December 2013. This report also pointed to the methodological challenges of researching the “hidden population” of prostitution, and was also cautious about the reliability of any data, but concluded that:

Over the last decade, the proportion of individuals in Sweden who had bought and sold sexual services had remained relatively constant over time (approximately 7.5% of Swedish men between the ages of 18 and 65 which was a low figure compared to other Nordic and European countries);
Public support for the Swedish Act prohibiting the Purchase of Sexual Services had remained consistently strong;
Street prostitution had been cut by more than half since the estimate made in 1995, which was 650 women at the time;
The number of escort advertisements had increased markedly from 304 to 6,965. However, this growth could have resulted from an increased use of advertising rather than an increased number of individual sex workers.
Most sex workers were not Swedish: 77% of escort services advertisements were for foreign sex workers and most street prostitution involved foreigners. 71

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ff/26/2607.htm

In many European countries, foreigners constitute the majority of certain groups of prostitutes, e.g., approximately 90% of the window prostitutes in the red light district of Amsterdam are not native to the Netherlands. The same is true for prostitutes working in bars in Vienna. In cities where registered prostitution is legal, unregistered prostitutes, most of whom are foreigners, often outnumber the registered ones. Central European countries often receive "sex workers" from eastern Europe, e.g., from Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania, whereas the majority of migratory prostitutes in Great Britain and continental western Europe come from Africa, the Caribbean, and South America. In northern Europe, women from Russia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and the Baltic states are prostituting themselves in increasing numbers. Scandinavia has so far been affected relatively less by this mobility. In Spain, France, and Italy, women from Arabic and subSaharan countries are common among prostitutes. Foreign prostitutes move into Turkey along two main routes: women from the Balkan countries come to the western part of the country, whereas those from the former Soviet Union cross the border from Georgia, where they usually operate at resorts along the eastern Black Sea coast. Prostitutes are also mobile within the former communist bloc. For instance, women from Russia prostitute themselves in Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary. the customers are locals, particularly those with "hard currency", such as businessmen and "sex tourists" from the West. Following the outbreak of civil war in the former Yugoslavia, women from that country are now more frequently seen among the population of migratory prostitutes in Europe.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9815...%20in%20Vienna.

So what do you think about most of the prostitutes being from foreign countries?

[Blondie]

Lots of people hate their work but I don't see the connection to prostitution. If I work as a checkout chick it is not going to have the negative connotations that prostitution has. Do you not see prostitution as degrading?

If i slap your face, its humiliating right? But there are millions who find it exciting in sexual way. There are peoples who think having sex before marriage is a sin, others dont think that. Some people loves anal sex, some thinks its disgusting. So we are different with different mindset, its not my task to decide what is humiliating or what are others doing in the bed. Just like its not others business what im doing with my boyfriend when no one see us.
If a girl says i suck you for 20 euro and the guy is ok with it, then its personal choice of two adult person and you have nothing to do with it. The girl has rights to suck anyone for any reason. Its a human right to do that. The problem is not the sex work, but the forced sex work, of course we must pursue the last one.
Yes i think prostitution is not a good thing, i think porn is very harmful, but i cannot say that dont watch porn, because its your choice, your life.

I think i said everything, i will not continue this debate. We are just repeating ourselves. We agree to disagree

[oszkar07]

That's a daft response if you really care you need to go out and talk to prostitutes and get them a job. What kind of argument is that? So you can't discuss the topic unless you can fix the problem?

High class, low class it's immaterial they are still selling themselves for some creep to stick their cock in and use them as a dumpster. (Yes it's horrible). And just because you can make more money selling your body than doing a honest day's work for a lot less money is of course why some of these women do this type of work. It still doesn't make it okay? You can make a load of money being a hitman as well. Child abuse is also common unfortunately. People would meet someone like that every day. How do we stop all this abuse? Domestic abuse is another issue. People need to start speaking out in everyday conversation and not condoning people abusing others. Whether there is money involved or not and whether people admit it or not the fact that people are paying money is the reason why women will sell their bodies to be abused. Oh well, people say, they are doing it willingly and it is their right. Well selling your vagina or arse is because mostly men are paying for this and it is devaluing a person and making them a commodity and there is no way that person is going to feel good about themselves from doing that line of work.


https://comorbidityguidelines.org.au...l%20sex%20work.



https://www.caase.org/mental-health-...-of-sex-trade/

So do people here believe the studies and literature on the topic which involve large numbers of prostitutes or do they think their anecdotal stories about women doing prostituting because they like sex and women do it because they enjoy it are correct? There must be something wrong with me that I don't believe women enjoy being prostitutes? Yes I personally have a problem because I believe prostitution is degrading and harmful to the people that engage in it.

Grace I personally dont think it is a great career choice.

I 100 percent believe that the crime gangs and illegal traffickers should be stopped.

Go back and look at the clips I posted from Youtube there are 2 high class escorts they talk about how much money they make, one of them wrote a book and is doing
the rounds promoting the book in those morning shows.

I suspect you disagree with the whole notion of "Prostitution" , the idea of sex being a transaction for money even when its as consentual as possible
I feel I am correct in assuming your position of opposition to the basic concept of "Prostitution " , right ?

So in a way after you seperate the coerced/trafficked sex workers and the ones who may not have developed many other job skills and may have drug problems.
Grace then you are left with the types that appear in those two Youtube clips I posted.
I would imagine there are probably throughout the world hundreds of women similiar to those women, possibly thousands that work as high class escorts.

So if you sat down with either of those women and gave them a piece of your mind as you are rightfully so doing here , do you think that you would at the end of your conversation change their minds, do you think they will stop being prostitutes after you give them your wisdom ?

If your saying Prostitution should be banned throughout the world and it does not matter what other women think, I mean ok thats your oppinion but not all women will necessarily agree with you.

If an incredibly large amount of women feel exactly the way you feel towards sex work and pornography then how can it be that there are so many sex workers in legal brothels and so many women working in legal pornography. Why today so many young women are doing onlyfans which is pornography.
I literally cannot open my yahoo homepage at anytime without seeing some stupid story about at least 2 or 3 different onlyfans models and this is on yahoo homepage Grace not even a porn site ?

That's a daft response if you really care you need to go out and talk to prostitutes and get them a job. What kind of argument is that? So you can't discuss the topic unless you can fix the problem?

In a way you can't fix the problem in the way that you feel it should be fixed if you can't convince the girls who have a choice to do that work that perhaps they should not do it for all the reasons you have presented.

In a sense Blondie does have a point , you have 2 adults - they consent to an agreement which might be exchanging money for a sexual activity. Ultimately that is a decision they both made right ? so why do you feel that you should have a right to impose your thoughts and oppinions upon what those 2 adults decided to do ? They both might be perfectly happy with their said agreement despite and in spite of how and what you may feel about it yeh ?

[Grace O'Malley]

In the sense that a butterfly wafting its wings might eventually affect everyone, perhaps.

No I think prostitution is detrimental to all women. I think the fact that you can buy a woman's body for sex is degrading to all women. Men that frequent prostitutes are more likely to view all women as "cheap tarts", "sluts" etc. Studies have shown that men who purchase sex are likely to have less empathy, more inclined to spousal violence, more likely to believe things like women want to be raped and more likely to spread sexual diseases. They are more likely to exhibit dark tetrad traits ((i.e., sub-clinical traits of sadism, psychopathy, narcissism and Machiavellianism). Makes sense when you think about it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7533589/

It's currently not a crime in Australia, or most of Europe, however it is illegal across the Muslim world. Does that say something? Muslims respect women but Westerners don't? The fact that it's been commonplace throughout human history says more about humanity than any society. Something very unprofound.

It's illegal here in the West. Also in many countries such as Ireland, Sweden, Norway etc. It is illegal to buy sex however selling sex is not illegal. They are trying to not victimise the women but prosecute the men paying for sex. Anyway humanity has many flaws. We all know that.

And many customers of prostitutes will also have those issues, doesn't make it OK to engage in, let alone make it your profession.

Is there definite proof of a causal link between those things and men viewing women negatively? And is that the only thing to be concerned about? Lots of people have argued that the opposite forced sexual repression in the Muslim world and India causes them to treat women more negatively than Western men. And you can look at our own deeply religious and repressed Medieval and Early Modern European history, and the views of women then compared to now. Something to consider.

It is a fact that women are treated as lesser than in lots of societies. That women are treated better in Western countries does not mean that there are still not issues that can be improved upon. Domestic abuse and prostitution disproportionately affect women by a huge margin. There are always things that can be worked on to make it better for everyone. I also think we should do more to improve education for young boys who are falling behind and young men who are more likely to commit suicide. Yes there are plenty of studies that prostitution and pornography are industries that perpetrate a negative and derogatory image of women. It is not difficult to search for these.

Famously they use to give porn to Abo's in the Northern Territory to cut down on the amount of rape there, must have been somewhat effective.

Rape and abuse of women is rife in the Aboriginal community. I think you must be posting what you said above as sarcasm.

There's no doubt they are seedy and disgusting businesses and have an overall negative impact on society, wouldn't disagree with you one bit there.

Yes it is completely negative.

[Grace O'Malley]

If i slap your face, its humiliating right? But there are millions who find it exciting in sexual way. There are peoples who think having sex before marriage is a sin, others dont think that. Some people loves anal sex, some thinks its disgusting. So we are different with different mindset, its not my task to decide what is humiliating or what are others doing in the bed. Just like its not others business what im doing with my boyfriend when no one see us.
If a girl says i suck you for 20 euro and the guy is ok with it, then its personal choice of two adult person and you have nothing to do with it. The girl has rights to suck anyone for any reason. Its a human right to do that. The problem is not the sex work, but the forced sex work, of course we must pursue the last one.
Yes i think prostitution is not a good thing, i think porn is very harmful, but i cannot say that dont watch porn, because its your choice, your life.

I think i said everything, i will not continue this debate. We are just repeating ourselves. We agree to disagree

I'm glad you at least don't think prostitution and porn is good and realise how harmful and damaging they are. If we can agree on that then I think people can see how society should do what is possible to stop the sex industry just like how they stopped slavery. I don't think it is a human right to buy sex or for people to sell themselves for sex and I think people should be educated on the repercussions. I just don't think it is like any transaction such as selling a couch. Yes we will agree to disagree. I think prostitution is morally wrong and exploits women. Also the majority of prostitutes are from disadvantaged backgrounds which is why the vast majority of prostitutes in Western Europe are from poorer countries.