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Thread: Алфабетул Кйрилик Ромынеск (Alfabetul Chirilic Romnesc)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    Interestingly, the language in which it is written is Old Bulgarian, not just the use of Cyrillic. This shows that the Brasov citizens spoke this language. This is not a church book, but a letter intended to be read to the population of this city.
    This is incorrect. Medieval Romanians were not speakers of Bulgarian (OCS). However, educated Romanians (which were a tiny minority) did speak Old Bulgarian. This is because OCS was the liturgical language in the Romanian principalities, and education was done in the liturgical language everywhere in Europe until the spread of print (15th century). 15th and 16th century are a transitional period when education and administration happened in both languages, but predominantly in Bulgarian, then in the 17th century Romanian displaced Bulgarian completely (in Church and administration).

    All this time though, the average peasant Romanian did not understand Bulgarian save for a few words that entered the basic vocabulary (like nevasta etc). Romanians and Bulgarians have diverged culturally by year 1000, when Bulgarians favored a Slavic culture and Romanians a Romance culture. However, the genetic overlap the Romanians have with Bulgarians and Serbs remains large to this day.

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    [QUOTE = ixulescu; 6441329] Това е неправилно. Средновековните румънци не бяха говорители на български (OCS). Обаче образованите румънци (които бяха мъничко малцинство) говореха старобългарски. Това е така, защото OCS е бил богослужебният език в румънските княжества и образованието се е извършвало на богослужебния език навсякъде в Европа до разпространението на печата (15 век). 15-ти и 16-ти век са преходен период, когато образованието и администрацията се случват на двата езика, но предимно на българския, а след това през XVII век румънският разселен изцяло български (в църква и администрация).

    През цялото това време обаче обикновеният селски румънец не разбираше българския освен за няколко думи, които влизаха в основната лексика (като nevasta и т.н.).Румънците и българите се разминават културно до 1000 година , когато българите предпочитат славянска култура, а румънците - романска култура. Генетичното припокриване, което румънците имат с българи и сърби, и до днес остава голямо. [/ ЦИТО]

    I think you are wrong. The Slav-speaking population in the medieval lands of present-day Romania was very large. The very fact that for a large period these lands were part of medieval Bulgaria, from the north the influence of Kievan Rus speaking, southwestern Serbian influence - Slavic speaking. Today's Romanian language, as part of the Romance group, could not physically be prevalent among the population. Purely geographically, the territory of medieval Wallachia has no common border with Romance-speaking countries. The Romance language was present in these territories, but it was chosen for political reasons in the mid-18th century as opposition to the Slavic expansion by the Russian Empire. According to research, modern Romanian vocabulary contains 70% of Latin elements (of which only 30% are native and the rest is an adaptation mainly in French, Latin and Italian words or regional, little-known languages ​​such as corso and sardine). 19th century began the intensive artificial Latinization in the Romanian language under the patronage of the French. About 30% of the spoken vocabulary (vocabulary) in modern Romanian are Bulgarian and Old Bulgarian (bolnav болнав/болен, vreme време, vidră видра, cleste клещи, gădil гъдел, gălăgia глъч, grijă грижа, dobitoc добитък, drzneşti дразня, drojdia дрожди, jigneşti да жегна, vină вина, taina тайна, trebuie трябва, ştirbi щърбав, spovedanie изповед, ieftine евтино, izbăvi избавям, măgăriţa магарица, nevăstuica невестулка, oglinda огледало, obicei обичай, odih отдих, otrava отрова, primejdia премеждие, proroc пророк, pricina причина, pocăinţa покаяние, răsplata разплата, sfeşnice свещник, sfnt свят, sfrşit свършек, tutun тютюн, zid зид, muncă работа (< мъка), a iubi обичам (< любя), prieten приятел, ţara държава (< царщина/царство)) and many more. The Romanian language also influenced the Bulgarian, especially the 19th century during the Bulgarian Renaissance, when the Bulgarian emigration was mainly active in various Romanian cities. Due to the semi-independent status of the Vlach principalities of the Ottoman Empire's administration and freer relations with Western Europe, many words from Western European languages, mainly from French as the official diplomatic language, have been translated into Bulgarian through Romanian. Borrowings from Western European languages ​​in Romanian into Bulgarian are, for example, маса-table <masă, супа-soup <supă, абонат-subscriber <abonat, and other . The large number of toponyms and hydronyms in Romania. Examples include: Crazy Bar, Bistra, Watchtower, Lipova, Island, Gabri, Cave, Corabia, Podgorica, Garvan, Prigorie, Padina, Rich, Potlogs, Native, Otter, Golden, Sohodol, Izvor, Clay, Salishte, Hooks, Mirchi Water, Dobromir, Dragomiresti, Negomiru, Good. These names, as well as many more, sound very clear to each of our compatriots because they are given by Bulgarians. I leave it to one side that only for the period 14-19c. more than two million Bulgarians emigrated to Wallachia during the Ottoman Empire
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    ...
    Are using a translator for this conversation?
    I think nuances in what I'm saying are not picked up in automatic translation.

    Anyways, I'll give you an answer but I doubt a translator can figure it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    I think you are wrong. The Slav-speaking population in the medieval lands of present-day Romania was very large. The very fact that for a large period these lands were part of medieval Bulgaria, from the north the influence of Kievan Rus speaking, southwestern Serbian influence - Slavic speaking. Today's Romanian language, as part of the Romance group, could not physically be prevalent among the population. Purely geographically, the territory of medieval Wallachia has no common border with Romance-speaking countries.
    Not really. The early Romanian medieval principalities were surrounded by Slavic speaking countries/polities, with the exception of Hungary - however, this is an important exception, because it was the most powerful kingdom in vicinity. The Slavic speaking countries to the South of Danube were themselves multiethnic, the ethnic Slavic component probably never went above 50%. Among these ethnicities were Balkan Romance speakers, and so even though Romanian principalities had no Romance speaking countries among neighbors, it still had Romance speaking neighbors, living mostly in the highlands. This was the case in Romanian principalities as well - Romanians were the highlanders.



    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    The Romance language was present in these territories, but it was chosen for political reasons in the mid-18th century as opposition to the Slavic expansion by the Russian Empire.
    This is really naive. If Romanian would have been indeed a small minority language in 19th century Romania, then how could have Romanian, a completely different language, been forced onto a (presumably) Slavic, illiterate and rural population? Literacy in Romania in mid 19th century was abysmal, most likely less than 5%. This is an impossible task, I'm not sure how you think this could have been achieved. Imagine the effort and expense, we would have had tons of stories related to such a gargantuan project.



    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    According to research, modern Romanian vocabulary contains 70% of Latin elements (of which only 30% are native and the rest is an adaptation mainly in French, Latin and Italian words or regional, little-known languages ​​such as corso and sardine). About 30% of the spoken vocabulary (vocabulary) in modern Romanian are Bulgarian and Old Bulgarian
    These figures are incorrect. Romanian vocabulary has 14% of Slavic origin (not just Bulgarian), but basic vocabulary uses only 5% Slavic words.



    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    19th century began the intensive artificial Latinization in the Romanian language under the patronage of the French.
    This has never happened, for reasons I explained above. This mid 19th century theory of Latinization of Romanian was intensely promoted by the Tsarist Russia and Austria-Hungary to argue that Romanian language and Romanian nation are artificial, recent creations.

    In reality, the Romanian language changed little in the past 500 years. Google can translate 500 year old archaic Romanian text using the current Romanian vocabulary! This text for instance was only transliterated from Romanian Cyrillic to 19th century Romanian Latin alphabet (somewhat different from the current one) - otherwise the text is unchanged:

    this is the original, but using Latin alphabet:
    https://ro.wikisource.org/wiki/Letop...ecat_%C8%9Bara

    and this is the translation ino English using present day Romanian:
    https://translate.google.com/transla..._%25C8%259Bara


    If Romanian was indeed a 19th century invention Google wouldn't have been able to translate into English every word of a 17th century text using present day Romanian vocabulary.
    Last edited by ixulescu; 01-08-2020 at 10:21 PM.

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    [QUOTE = ixulescu; 6442282] Използвате преводач за този разговор?
    Мисля, че нюансите в това, което казвам, не се взимат в автоматичен превод.

    Както и да е, ще ви отговоря, но се съмнявам, че един преводач може да го разбере.



    Не точно. Ранните румънски средновековни княжества бяха заобиколени от славяно говорящи страни / политики, с изключение на Унгария - това обаче е важно изключение, тъй като беше най-мощното кралство в близост. Славяно говорящите страни на юг от Дунав са били многоетнически, етническият славянски компонент вероятно никога не е надхвърлял 50%. Сред тези етноси бяха говорители на балканския романс и така, макар че румънските княжества нямаха романски говорещи страни сред съседите, все пак имаше романски говорещи съседи, живеещи предимно в планините. Такъв беше случаят и в румънските княжества - румънците бяха горничани.





    Това е наистина наивно. Ако румънският наистина би бил малък език на малцинството през 19 век, тогава как би могъл румънският, напълно различен език, да бъде принуден към (вероятно) славянско, неграмотно и селско население? Грамотността в Румъния в средата на 19 век беше безчетна, най-вероятно под 5%. Това е невъзможна задача, не съм сигурен как смятате, че това би могло да бъде постигнато. Представете си усилията и разходите, щяхме да имаме много истории, свързани с един такъв проект.





    Тези цифри са неправилни. Румънският речник има 14% от славянски произход (не само български), но основната лексика използва само 5% славянски думи.





    Това никога не се е случвало по причини, които обясних по-горе. Тази теория за латинизация на румънски език в средата на 19-ти век беше интензивно популяризирана от царската Русия и Австро-Унгария, за да твърдят, че румънският език и румънската нация са изкуствени, скорошни творения.

    В действителност румънският език се промени малко в последните 500 години. Google може да преведе 500-годишен архаичен румънски текст, използвайки текущия румънски речник! Този текст, например, е транслитериран само от румънска кирилица на румънска латинска азбука от 19 век (донякъде различен от сегашния) - в противен случай текстът е непроменен:

    това е оригиналът, но се използва латиница:
    https://ro.wikisource.org/wiki/Letop...ecat_%C8%9Bara

    и това е преводът ино английски, използващ днешния румънски:
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=bg&tab=wT1&sl=auto&tl=bg&u=https%3A%2 F%2Fro.wikisource.org%2Fwiki%2FLetopise%25C8%259Bu l_%25C8 % 259B% 25C4% 2583r% 25C3% 25A2i_Moldovei% 2C_de_c% 25C3% 25A2nd_s-au_desc% 25C4% 2583lecat_% 25C8% 259Bara


    Ако румънският наистина беше изобретение от 19 век, Google нямаше да може да преведе на английски всяка дума от 17-ти век текст, използващ днешния румънски речник. [/ ЦИТОВЕ]


    Yes, I use a translator. I understand that not everything in this type of translation is ok. Everything is achieved with education gradually. Just as the Bulgarians in the 9th century take Slavic as their official language. Remember that from the 8th century until the formation of the Vlach principalities, most of the territories were part of medieval Bulgaria, which exacerbated this influence especially after Christianization. Thus, by the 13th-14th centuries, there was already a predominantly Slavic-speaking population, regardless of whether it was ethnically Slavic. I do not deny that there were Latin speakers, but given the development of historical processes in the Middle Ages, it is now weaker. By the time of its imposition in 19c.
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

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    М-ам тот гꙟндит кум ар требуи сә арате азбукеле ромꙟнеск ши дупә мукте ꙟнчеркәрј ам ажунс ла конклузија кә ар требуи сә арате аша:

    Аа Бб Вв Гг Дд Ее Әә Жж Зз Ии Ꙟꙟ Јј Кк Лл Мм Нн Оо Пп Рр Сс Тт Уу Ўў Фф Хх Цц Чч Џџ Шш

    Ачеста је ун азбуке симплификат алкәтуит дин 29 де литере егзакт кꙟте јераў ꙟн периоада де транзиције. Литереле Ꙟꙟ, Ўў, ши Џџ сꙟнт спечифик ромꙟнештј. Литера Јј ам луат-о де ла сꙟрбј јар литера Әә ам луат-о де ла попоареле турчиче. Дин пункту меў де ведере ачаста репрезинтә мулт мај бине сунету ә декꙟт литера ъ булгәреаскә аша кә ам ꙟнлокуит-о.
    Спер кә вә плаче ачест азбуке ши кә ва фи фолосит ꙟнтр-ун финал. Је мулт мај бун декꙟт поркәрија аја молдовенеаскә.

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    Ам фъкут о модификаре. Ам ꙟнлокуит литета ә ку ъ ши j ку ĭ. Акум ĭе перфект ромꙟнеск. Дечĭ азбукеле финале ĭе: Аа Бб Вв Гг Дд Ее Жж Зз Ии Ĭĭ Кк Лл Мм Нн Оо Пп Рр Сс Тт Уу Ўў Фф Хх Цц Чч Џџ Шш Ъъ Ꙟꙟ

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