Welsh firmly back Britain's Union

[Albion]

An old story, but I thought it relevant because a few people on here have wondered about it.

There is strong support for Wales remaining part of Great Britain, according to a survey for the BBC.
Nearly 70% of people in Wales said they wanted to keep the Union as it is with 20% being in favour of independence.

The BBC Wales/Newsnight poll found 48% thought Wales would lose financially by splitting from England and Scotland whilst 14% believed it would benefit.

The telephone survey marks the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union which brought the three countries together.

But 33% of respondents believed Wales' culture would be enhanced by a split, 13% thought it would be diminished.

Support for the Union was strongest in England, where 74% of those surveyed wanted to keep it.

It was weakest in Scotland but 56% of Scots still wanted to remain British, with 32% wanting independence.

The 20% in favour in favour of independence in Wales is higher than in similar previous surveys, which have tended to hover around the 10 to 15% mark.

A good majority throughout Britain thought Wales, England and Scotland would remain together for at least another 50 years.

Fifty seven per cent of people in Wales believed this to be the case.

There was also considerable support throughout Britain for the creation of an English parliament, now that Wales and Scotland have devolution.

Sixty per cent of those surveyed in England wanted their own parliament, 52% of Scots and 48% of people in Wales wanted devolution for England.

Wales was united with England in the 16th Century but the full Union was completed 300 years ago when Scotland signed an Act of Union.

The study follows claims by Welsh Secretary Peter Hain that the UK could be broken up by a coalition of Tories and nationalists.

Mr Hain said Plaid Cymru would damage Wales economically by pursuing independence while the Conservatives would harm the Union by cutting the role of Welsh MPs.

Plaid and the Conservatives have accused Mr Hain of trying to scare people into voting Labour in May's Welsh assembly election.

Source...

[Albion]

I think most Welsh people are fine with a union so long as Wales is allowed to pursue its own affairs.
Personally I want Scotland and NI to bugger off, but I don't really care about Wales, they can do as they please.

I'd prefer a totally independent England, but I doubt we'll ever get a say on that, but a high degree of devolution would be very good.
The union could probably be salvaged if England, Scotland and Wales were all given equal devolved powers with a high level of autonomy, but Westminster is doesn't seem to see this.

I'd like England to be self governing either within or outside of the UK and for Westminster to shove all this "Britishness" crap where the sun don't shine.
Britishness should be about recognising and respecting the ties that bind us across the whole British Isles, not some fake political-based identity.

[Treffie]

Mr Hain said Plaid Cymru would damage Wales economically by pursuing independence

Ha, funny. Mr Hain and his friends have been chipping away at the economy for the last 10 years. Plaid wouldn't do worse.

[Albion]

Ha, funny. Mr Hain and his friends have been chipping away at the economy for the last 10 years. Plaid wouldn't do worse.

What are your views Tref? What's opinion like in your neck of the woods and what is the reasoning like?

[Treffie]

What are your views Tref? What's opinion like in your neck of the woods and what is the reasoning like?

At this moment in time? We've got a 2 tier education system - successful Welsh language schools, religious afiliated and private schools on one side and the failing state English language schools on the other. The Senedd is failing in attracting inward investment, I think we attracted 3.5% of all inward investment to Britain in 2010 (during the 80s and 90s, it was something like 15%). If we can't run our own country with devolved powers, how on earth are we going to run an independent one?

[Graham]

At this moment in time? We've got a 2 tier education system - successful Welsh language schools, religious afiliated and private schools on one side and the failing state English language schools on the other. The Senedd is failing in attracting inward investment, I think we attracted 3.5% of all inward investment to Britain in 2010 (during the 80s and 90s, it was something like 15%). If we can't run our own country with devolved powers, how on earth are we going to run an independent one?

3.5%, Not that much dfferen't to England. I think it shows more about the Unionist Party, Labour. Compared to a Separatist party SNP. Time to bin Labour.

[Treffie]

3.5%, Not that much dfferen't to England. I think it shows more about the Unionist Party, Labour. Compared to a Separatist party SNP. Time to bin Labour.

That's the thing. It'll never happen

[Gordon Bennett]

I've never bought the 'we couldn't do it' argument. My view on that subject has always been: if Luxembourg and Slovenia can do it so can we. Certainly, we need to elect a better class of politicians - away from the old Labour spend, spend, spend philosophy - but of course we could run our own country. We're not retards.

Anyway, I have a sneaking feeling that the focus of the post-Scotland union debate won't turn out to be Wales, as everyone seems to be assuming.

If Scotland goes (and it is still an if), then the United Kingdom in which we live will cease to exist. It will float away into the history books as suddenly and permanently as the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union. If England, Wales and Northern Ireland wish to remain linked by a political union, it would have to be a completely new union; with a different constitution and, yes, even a different flag. The days of Wales being treated as a province of a Greater England ended with devolution and there can be no going back.
But a continuing Anglo-Welsh union is another if. It could well be that it is the English - the modern, post-imperial English - question the point of such a union. The government of Wales (both in Cardiff and London) does spend more than it takes in taxes from Wales. So the awkward truth here in Wales is that the English do subsidise us - up to a point, anyway. As a proud Welshman - as a proud man in fact - I don't think this is fair or desireable for anyone.

Wales can be a viable state, but I think an increasing sense of English identity over the border may make any Welsh desire for independence a moot point.

[Graham]

The government of Wales (both in Cardiff and London) does spend more than it takes in taxes from Wales. So the awkward truth here in Wales is that the English do subsidise us - up to a point, anyway. As a proud Welshman - as a proud man in fact - I don't think this is fair or desireable for anyone.

Wales can be a viable state, but I think an increasing sense of English identity over the border may make any Welsh desire for independence a moot point.

Being in the UK, with the Barnett formula, creates a comfort zone. No responsibilities. It would mean you're going to spend, spend, spend. Having full fiscal control, would force people to think differently. Learn from mistakes.

Wales is devolved like Treffie says, yes. But we're still taking pocket money from London. That in my opinion, isn't a good form of devolution.

[Gordon Bennett]

Being in the UK, with the Barnett formula, creates a comfort zone. No responsibilities. It would mean you're going to spend, spend, spend. Having full fiscal control, would force people to think differently. Learn from mistakes.

Wales is devolved like Treffie says, yes. But we're still taking pocket money from London. That in my opinion, isn't a good form of devolution.

Exactly so. We're getting the best of both worlds; I can understand the growing sense of resentment that many English people feel.

I think it's important, at this point, to try and make sure this debate doesn't simply become an economic argument. It always tends to do this, principally, because the unionists think it is their strongest argument. It is not the only argument, though. For example, independence for Ireland never made economic sense, but the Irish people wanted it. The reunification of Germany in the early 1990s was always going to be a huge economic burden for West Germany, but it was what all the German people desired. The economic argument is important, but it is also important to remember that man cannot live by bread alone.

As I've said, I believe that, if there is to be no post-Scotland union, it will be an English decision, not a Welsh one. We may well end up like Belarus or Moldova: a nation that wasn't clamouring for independence, but which nevertheless had independence thrust upon it.