Reviving the Prussian language.

[Skomand]

All the sources I've read so far state that the plague wiped out all remaining Old Prussians (apart from those who were already assimilated before), along those lines:
http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/princip.htm

You do realize that there is something wrong here? The plague might have wiped out the last s p e a k e r s of Old Prussian, it did not wipe out all the people that descended from them. That is why you meet a lot of members on East-Prussian genealogy lists with Old Prussian names. Germanisation might have done away with language, it did not do away with people.

Klaipeda isn't exactly on the Prussian lands to begin with - in 12th century it was still Curonian territory.
If we talk about the whole the whole Klaipeda's region, it's still only the Westernmost area that's a subdialect of Samogitian (in brown) while even the bulk of Skalvian lands belongs to West Aukstaitian dialect (a.k.a Suvalkijos, a.k.a. Sudovian)

Yes, and what are you trying to say?

[Dandelion]

I don't know much about Prussians and all, however, I do believe that with the death of a language a culture dies in a way. At most only some regionalist substrates might remain, but the culture has often changed forever after a language switch. I doubt that Germanisation (and admixture with ethnic German colonists) didn't make the Prussians to cease existing as a people.
Northern French neither call themselves Dutch anymore, and while some call themselves Flemish, they're certainly not the same kind of Flemish as we have in Dutch-speaking Flanders. Remnants of their ancestral Dutch-speaking culture still exist, but by becoming French the people as we used to know vanished (rather changed). And of course, those living today and speaking French neither mind being as they are today.

[lI]

Yes, and what are you trying to say?

Samogitian dialect as we know it now in itself arose when Lithuanians assimilated Curonians.

The bulk of Old Prussians who fled to Lithuania settled in Samogitia, had they come back to East Prussia afterwards, there would be Samogitian influence on Lietuvninkai dialect. But as it stands, the only tiny piece of East Prussia where a dialect akin to Samogitian exists is precisely on the former lands of Curonians - rather than those of Old Prussians.
While the dialect of Lietuvninkai from the former Old Prussian territories is not Samogitian but Sudovian - that doesn't go in line with exiled Old Prussians later returning to their homeland from Samogitia en masse.

You do realize that there is something wrong here? The plague might have wiped out the last s p e a k e r s of Old Prussian, it did not wipe out all the people that descended from them. That is why you meet a lot of members on East-Prussian genealogy lists with Old Prussian names. Germanisation might have done away with language, it did not away with people.

In that case it is indeed a mystery why East Prussian haplogroup is so scarce in Germany.
"A lot" is a relative concept though - depends on what you compare it with.

I'm curious, where could those East-Prussian genealogy lists be found?

[RussiaPrussia]

I don't know much about Prussians and all, however, I do believe that with the death of a language a culture dies in a way. At most only some regionalist substrates might remain, but the culture has often changed forever after a language switch. I doubt that Germanisation (and admixture with ethnic German colonists) didn't make the Prussians to cease existing as a people.
Northern French neither call themselves Dutch anymore, and whole some call themselves Flemish, they're certainly not the same kind of Flemish as we have in Dutch-speaking Flanders. Remnants of their ancestral Dutch-speaking culture still exist, but by becoming French the people as we used to know vanished (rather changed). And of course, those living today and speaking French neither mind being as they are today.

german prussia still had the old spirit of prussians.

[Skomand]

Samogitian dialect as we know it now in itself arose when Lithuanians assimilated Curonians.

The bulk of Old Prussians who fled to Lithuania settled in Samogitia, had they come back to East Prussia afterwards, there would be Samogitian influence on Lietuvninkai dialect. But as it stands, the only tiny piece of East Prussia where a dialect akin to Samogitian exists is precisely on the former lands of Curonians - rather than those of Old Prussians.
While the dialect of Lietuvninkai from the former Old Prussian territories is not Samogitian but Sudovian - that doesn't go in line with exiled Old Prussians later returning to their homeland from Samogitia en masse.

As I said before, this is not my conjecture. Immigration from Samogitia, however, must have gone beyond the area where we find a Samogitian spoken in modern times. Antanas Zalys in his book "Die zemaitischen Mundarten" (downloadable) argues that the -aitis/-atis patronym suffixes are of purely Samogitian origin. And this is the most common suffix used in Prussian-Lithuania all over the place.
One might also argue whether Old Prussians returning to their Prussian homelands might still have their Old Prussian linguistic bagggage after an absence of 200 years among Lithuanians.

In that case it is indeed a mystery why East Prussian haplogroup is so scarce in Germany.
"A lot" is a relative concept though - depends on what you compare it with.
I'm curious, where could those East-Prussian genealogy lists be found?

"A lot" compared to "impossible that they continued existing".

There are "OW-Preussen-L@genealogy.net", "memelland@yahoogroups.com" whose archives are freely accessible.

You have to be a paying member of this one to access their mailing list (from which I'm banned):

http://www.vffow.de/default.htm

[inactive_member]

Germanisation might have done away with language, it did not do away with people.

During forced Christinianisation many Prussians also fled to the territories of present day western Belarus. It’s unknown how many arrived because the migration happened a long time ago. Prussians took part in the formation of other ethnicities. I don't think their genetic make-up would have been different to their kin neighbours.

[member]

There is an interesting section called Lithuanians of Lithuania Minor: autochtons or immigrants? in the book by Arthur Hermann (Lietuvių ir vokiečių kaimynystė : straipsnių rinkinys). The article deals with populating of wildnis. It mentions that in XII-XIII c. Nadruvians and Scalvians together with southern Curonians politically belonged to Samogitians who immigrated to these lands (which means close inguistic contacts between Western and Eastern Baltic).

I'm guessing that suffixes - alis/atis are result of monoftongization. At least-al- suffix is always described as a typically Samogitian.

On patronymic Samogitian suffixes:

Labai skatintume žemaitiškai rašant vengti merginų pavardžių priesagų, visiškai svetimų tarmei.
Gal būti Botkalė, Gedgaudalė, Raudalė jau tikrai daug kam skamba šiurkštokai, bet juk puikiausiai galime sakyti Botkātė, Gedgaudātė, Raudātė ar Butkiki, Gedgaudiki, Raudiki, – žiūrint iš kur esame kilę. Žemaitiškame tekste visokios Butkutės, Gedgaudaitės, Raudytės atrodo tikri svetimkūniai. [All kinds of "the mentioned surnames" look like true aliens in a Samogitian text.]Turėtume vengti ir vyrų pavardžių bei vardų „modernizuotų“ formų – neužmiršti, kad Grabauskas, Jonauskas, Kaminskas žemaitiškai vadinami tik Grabauskis, Juonauskis, Kaminskis, kad čia yra tik vardai Jūzaps / Jūzops ar Jozis / Juzis (kartais – Jozė), Kazimiers / Kazīmiers ar Kazė, Ontuons / Untuons ar Ontė (ret. Antanis), Prončėškos / Prančiškus ar Pranis, Stapuons ar Stapis, Stanisluovs ar Stasis… Knyginiai variantai tegu lieka bendrinei vartosenai – mes, žemaičiai, laikykimės savų tradicijų.

http://samogitia.mch.mii.lt/KALBA/ra...m#morfologijos

[Skomand]

I don't know much about Prussians and all, however, I do believe that with the death of a language a culture dies in a way. At most only some regionalist substrates might remain, but the culture has often changed forever after a language switch. I doubt that Germanisation (and admixture with ethnic German colonists) didn't make the Prussians to cease existing as a people.
Northern French neither call themselves Dutch anymore, and whole some call themselves Flemish, they're certainly not the same kind of Flemish as we have in Dutch-speaking Flanders. Remnants of their ancestral Dutch-speaking culture still exist, but by becoming French the people as we used to know vanished (rather changed). And of course, those living today and speaking French neither mind being as they are today.

The arrival of the Teutonic Order was a "horse and wheel" situation. Old Prussian culture was not a full-blown culture but a pagan peasant culture, that had atrocious practices like widow-burning.
The arrival of protestantism was too late to save the Old Prussian language (it did save, however, the Lithuanian language).

[member]

^^
trololol.

[lI]

One might also argue whether Old Prussians returning to their Prussian homelands might still have their Old Prussian linguistic bagggage after an absence of 200 years among Lithuanians.

Samogitians (and all other Lithuanians) lack any substantial Old Prussian linguistic substrate, so, obviously, Old Prussians could not have had any Old Prussian linguistic baggage after those years in Lithuania. The situation seems to be comparable to Baltic immigration to Estonia after the Polish-Swedish & Great Northern wars which, despite of being sizeable, left no linguistic impact due to the swift assimilation under the feudal system.

As I said before, this is not my conjecture. Immigration from Samogitia, however, must have gone beyond the area where we find a Samogitian spoken in modern times. Antanas Zalys in his book "Die zemaitischen Mundarten" (downloadable) argues that the -aitis/-atis patronym suffixes are of purely Samogitian origin. And this is the most common suffix used in Prussian-Lithuania all over the place.

In the beginning of 17th century surnames with -aitis suffix constituted 63% of all suffixes in Vilnius city. Even though this suffix is more common in Western Lithuania - which is not only Samogitia but also Sudovia - it does occur in east Lithuania as well. The very demonym of East Lithuania is Aukštaitis.

Nowadays, this patronymic suffix is more common in Sudovia than in Samogitia by far (In South Lithuania, the frequency of this suffix was brought down by a new arrival of -evicius, as a result of it being geographically closer to the epicentre of GDL):
http://forum.istorija.net/forums/thr...2383&mid=31983

The arrival of the Teutonic Order was a "horse and wheel" situation. Old Prussian culture was not a full-blown culture but a pagan peasant culture, that had atrocious practices like widow-burning.
The arrival of protestantism was too late to save the Old Prussian language (it did save, however, the Lithuanian language).

Oh the irrational sentimentality

Old Prussian culture was more of a full-blown culture, than the contemporaneous German one could aspire to be - it had its own autochtonous religion, customs, social structure whereas Teutons were merely regurgitating the imported Judeo-Christian religion and other cultural aspects taken over from the Mediterranean.

The only sense in which it was "superior" to the indigenous Old Prussian one was aggressiveness. Teutonic Order was far more aggressive, I'll give you that.


You bringing up widow burning in this context is really laughable though - as if the Germans weren't practising things no less atrocious?
As if the Germans didn't burn alive the Prussian chieftains who came to them for negotiation in 1261? Did the Ordin's Master not burn alive the Teutonic knights who sided with Old Prussians side during the Great Prussian Uprising?
Even many centuries later, Protestants were still burning women at stakes as "witches". How's that for primitive?