How Western is Russia?

[Phil75231]

I'm not trying to stop further discussion about what I'm about to say, but...

...if this turns into a "Who/What is Europe and what is not?", just be warned I've seen this discussion on other antrhoboards over the years. The basic idea is that the definition of Europe is at least partially arbitrary. We can't use human geography definitions (the reasons should be obvious to members of this board). Nor can we use ecological reasons, as I found out*. The closest thing we have to an objective definition of Europe - independent of our perceptions is the geologic one - the western peninsula of the continent of Eurasia. Even in this case, the eastern and SE boundaries are at least partially ambiguous.



*I tried an ecological definition: Areas of exclusively either (a) Mediterranean climate (b) Midlatitude Marine, and (c) humid continental. This ended up including almost all the NW African coast[1], ALL the Mediterranean Middle East from the Turkish Straits south all the way to (and including) Gaza (!!!).

As if that weren't sketchy enough, it excludes the northern 40% of Sweden and almost all of Finland (barring the immediate south coastal areas). It also excludes northmost Norway (which has a Polar Tundra climate). Additional exclusions might even indluce part of Romania (esp the Eastern Part).

[1] (from about Tunis to Casablanca),

[Joe McCarthy]

You are correct, but Zionist led US govt is more dangerous then Russia...

No offense, but those who fixate on Zionism represent a fringe minority and base their views more on conspiracy theory than actual policy. The policy of the United States has been preferable to that of Russia over the last century in virtually every way.

[beaver]

Russia first of all is a successor of Byzantium (Россия - третий Рим, а четвертому не бывать/Russia is a third Rome and there couldnt be the fourth). And a successor of the Western Rome through the Peter the Great. It explains our schizophrenic mood.

[Sarmatian]

I'm not trying to stop further discussion about what I'm about to say, but...

...if this turns into a "Who/What is Europe and what is not?", just be warned I've seen this discussion on other antrhoboards over the years. The basic idea is that the definition of Europe is at least partially arbitrary. We can't use human geography definitions (the reasons should be obvious to members of this board). Nor can we use ecological reasons, as I found out*. The closest thing we have to an objective definition of Europe - independent of our perceptions is the geologic one - the western peninsula of the continent of Eurasia. Even in this case, the eastern and SE boundaries are at least partially ambiguous.



*I tried an ecological definition: Areas of exclusively either (a) Mediterranean climate (b) Midlatitude Marine, and (c) humid continental. This ended up including almost all the NW African coast[1], ALL the Mediterranean Middle East from the Turkish Straits south all the way to (and including) Gaza (!!!).

As if that weren't sketchy enough, it excludes the northern 40% of Sweden and almost all of Finland (barring the immediate south coastal areas). It also excludes northmost Norway (which has a Polar Tundra climate). Additional exclusions might even indluce part of Romania (esp the Eastern Part).

[1] (from about Tunis to Casablanca),

How about to use racial criterias of native popualtion to define what is Europe and what is not?

[Sarmatian]

Do you guys perceive Russia as part of the west?
Do Russians themselfes perceive themselfes as part of the West.

Interested to hear the opinions.

Defiine West please.

[Mary]

Russia is neither European nor Western.

[Stegura]

Russia is neither European nor Western.

Then what are they?

[beaver]

Then what are they?

Russians

[Sarmatian]

Then what are they?

Mysterious survivors of frozen desert

[Humanophage]

Well, it depends upon the definition of the West. By the way, the poll lacks the option "I'm not a Westerner and not a Russian, and I...". Also, I'll be speaking specifically about ethnic Russians - say, Tuvans are not a part of the West regardless of the definition.

If the West extends to East-Central and Eastern Europe (Poland, Lithuania, Romania, Bosnia, etc.), then Russia is the West. If it only includes Western Europe and Anglo-Saxon colonies, then obviously not. It is definitely not "Eurasian", for where is the "Asian" element that is absent elsewhere in Eastern Europe?

I'd call it typically Eastern European, having all the most prominent modern and historical features of the region:
- Slavic linguistically and in terms of core culture (Poland, Slovakia, Ukraine)
- Genetically typical of the Eastern European region (Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania)
- Involved in the Orthodox-Catholic conflicts for most of its history (Poland, Ukraine, Serbia)
- Had come in contact with steppe cultures (Romania, Hungary, Ukraine)
- Had come in extensive contact with the German culture (Latvia, Poland, Czech Rep.)
- Did not have extensive contact with the Middle East, unlike Southeast Europe
- Involved in the Warsaw Pact, influencing modern culture
- Currently engaged in post-Communist nationalism (albeit of a more imperialist and jingoist type)
- Similar to the rest of Eastern Europe in terms of social values

Most of the unusual influences come from the fact that Russia was a really large and relatively independent Eastern European state for the longest time among them all. That meant greater contact with foreign elites, such as the French - for example, during the Partition of Poland, Russia was heavy on "civilising" it with Enlightenment ideas.

Prior to Peter the Great, it also employed scores of Swedes and Germans, and had even tighter ties to Poland-Lithuania. Italians were also frequent - e.g., the Moscow Kremlin was designed by them. Russia also had far greater contact with Finno-Ugric peoples than any other European country except Finland and Estonia (especially in peasant culture), but I'd hesitate to call it an Eastern influence.

As for the Roman Empire, well, Finland or Sweden have even less influence from it. Conversely, Italy itself had significant East Roman influences in the Renaissance, especially in philosophy. And it's not like the ancients were forgotten in Byzantium - there were even attempts to revive Hellenic paganism.

Here's an extremely rough draft of my perception of cultural regions in Northwestern Eurasia. I dropped some not to cram the map too much (e.g., Celtic or Iranian), and the borders are very approximate indeed - gradients would have been better, but then it would be difficult to make them overlap. I don't have the time to make a proper map, the main point is to illustrate the cultural influences in Russia and its neighbours - so I hope no one starts pointing out geographic flaws and takes it for what it is:


(the names are largely irrelevant, by the way, just treat the areas as coloured components)

P.S. Another definition of the West is roughly "anything fairly civilised and aligned to the US", ranging from the UK to Turkey to Japan. I find it a little pointless.