Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Question about Caucasian morphological variation

  1. #1
    Veteran Member Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Útrám's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Online
    02-03-2020 @ 06:03 PM
    Ethnicity
    Icelandic
    Country
    United States
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    Taxonomy
    Tronder, KN, NW
    Politics
    N/A
    Gender
    Posts
    1,394
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 688
    Given: 44

    0 Not allowed!

    Default Question about Caucasian morphological variation

    I don't know if any anthropologist has properly accounted for this, if so then please provide citations. The ancient Cromagnon is arguably the archetype of the modern Caucasoid man but where do the contrastive leptoprosopic and leptomorphic types with a stronger tendecy towards dolichocephaly originate at? this elongated, narrow and thin frame seems less fitted to tough environments and hence trivial to survival.

    My question is this: Is this a product of sexual selection which happens to be parallel to each other(such as the case of the Mediterranean and the classic Nordic types)? Coon's Mediterranean hypothesis appeared plausible for it's time but advances in genetics divulged it's shortcomings. Both of the aforementioned types are remotely separated but coexist and share territory with related more ancestor-like individuals; in the north it's Phalian, Borreby and Bruen and in the south it is the southern-Cromagnid varieties and Alpine, it appears likely that these slender and more fine-featured races are unrelated ramifications that have underwent stronger sexual selection than it's counterparts, and the paucity of metrically pure Halstatt Nordics could suggest that it's a more recent development in northern Europe. Maybe someone who knows more about this could enlighten me.

  2. #2
    Inactive Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    07-25-2011 @ 10:42 AM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Gone
    Ethnicity
    Gone
    Gender
    Posts
    5,345
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 94
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    I don't think this issue is by any means settled. So far, the only attempts that I've seen to reconcile the morphological approach of Coon with contemporary population genetics has been on internet fora, nothing from any actual anthropologists. Right now it doesn't look like Coon's migration theories are correct, so until anthropologists return to taxonomy, we might not get an answer.

  3. #3
    Apricity Supporter Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Lenny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    07-28-2011 @ 11:09 AM
    Location
    Nearby
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Scandogermania
    Country
    United States
    Taxonomy
    Gracile CM
    Politics
    "Ethnocultural-continuity"
    Religion
    Mit dem Schwan
    Gender
    Posts
    1,067
    Blog Entries
    3
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 24
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    The ancient Cromagnon is arguably the archetype of the modern Caucasoid man but where do the contrastive leptoprosopic and leptomorphic types with a stronger tendecy towards dolichocephaly originate at?
    The answer to that question [location of the first proto-Nordics] is inevitably "somewhere" in western-Asia.

    That's also - broadly - where Cro-Magnon itself evolved. Caucasoids entered Europe in numerous waves after the continent was opened up following the end of the Neanderthal. Some of these waves were Nordic or proto-Nordic. The idea that Nordic evolved purely from local CMs is not plausible, IMO.

    [We think of ourselves as "raciallyEuropean", but the real raciallyEuropean humans were Neanderthal (in the sense of having evolved there). The Urheimat of all Caucasoids is western-Asia. The deep-origins of the bulk of Caucasoid genetics are the human types in western-Asia two million years ago, e.g. Homo-georgicus. IMO. (Clearly I do not believe Out-of-Africa).]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    nothing from any actual anthropologists.
    It is strange. I don't think ANY work on the kind of physical anthropology discussed on this site and others has been published by anyone born after 1935 or so. (Those who entered the Academy from ca.1960 onward).

    Once the guys born before 1935 started dying off, actual work in the field dropped off a cliff. It's sad.
    Hail to You

  4. #4
    Inactive Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    07-25-2011 @ 10:42 AM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Gone
    Ethnicity
    Gone
    Gender
    Posts
    5,345
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 94
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny View Post
    It is strange. I don't think ANY work on the kind of physical anthropology discussed on this site and others has been published by anyone born after 1935 or so. (Those who entered the Academy from ca.1960 onward).

    Once the guys born before 1935 started dying off, actual work in the field dropped off a cliff. It's sad.
    This is definitely true. There's a great account of taxonomy's decline in anthropology (mostly as a result of the Boazian revolution) in the most recent (Vol. 8, Num. 3) issue of The Occidental Quarterly called "Taxonomic Approaches to Race."

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Útrám's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Online
    02-03-2020 @ 06:03 PM
    Ethnicity
    Icelandic
    Country
    United States
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    Taxonomy
    Tronder, KN, NW
    Politics
    N/A
    Gender
    Posts
    1,394
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 688
    Given: 44

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    IMO this polymorphism among Europeans is a product of microevolution through sexual selection. None of these phenotypes are isolated they all inhabit the same territory. In biology it has often been observed that ancestors can live simultaneously with their descendants, on a far far more wider scale you see the same for human beings and chimpanzees; Not only just primates but a lot creatures, the same applied to dinosaurs[ link ] I have made some simple charts to put things into perspective:

    Northern Europe



    Southern Europe


  6. #6
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Last Online
    06-26-2013 @ 10:21 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    .
    Ethnicity
    .
    Gender
    Posts
    2,677
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 32
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Utram View Post
    I don't know if any anthropologist has properly accounted for this, if so then please provide citations. The ancient Cromagnon is arguably the archetype of the modern Caucasoid man but where do the contrastive leptoprosopic and leptomorphic types with a stronger tendecy towards dolichocephaly originate at? this elongated, narrow and thin frame seems less fitted to tough environments and hence trivial to survival.
    Leptoprosopic and Leptomorphic types of Paleolithic Europe were arguably even older than Cro-Magnons. I do not think there is any good reason to believe they were not contemporary to Cro-Magnons, or even, members of the same population. Even Coon acknowledged that all UP skulls lumped together are nearly as homogenous as a set of Inuit skulls. Combe-Capelle, Cheddar Man, Siemonia Man, Predmost, Brno - all these fossils were once lumped into the so called proto-Mediterranean type by old anthropologists (in contrast to UP types).

    My question is this: Is this a product of sexual selection which happens to be parallel to each other(such as the case of the Mediterranean and the classic Nordic types)? Coon's Mediterranean hypothesis appeared plausible for it's time but advances in genetics divulged it's shortcomings. Both of the aforementioned types are remotely separated but coexist and share territory with related more ancestor-like individuals; in the north it's Phalian, Borreby and Bruen and in the south it is the southern-Cromagnid varieties and Alpine, it appears likely that these slender and more fine-featured races are unrelated ramifications that have underwent stronger sexual selection than it's counterparts, and the paucity of metrically pure Halstatt Nordics could suggest that it's a more recent development in northern Europe. Maybe someone who knows more about this could enlighten me.
    Because relatively gracile forms existed in Europe for quite a long time, I do not think that it is plausible to ascribe all the gracilisation that took place in Europe in the past 30, 000 years or so, solely to the Med influx and Neolithic revolution.

    metrically pure Halstatt Nordics could suggest that it's a more recent development in northern Europe. Maybe someone who knows more about this could enlighten me.
    These are myths born out of XIX cen beliefs in "pure races" and convergent evolution from different species (which Coon professed himself)... What is a metrically pure HN? It is a statistical fiction with no grounding in biology, genetics or evolutionary history. Metrically "pure" HN is no purer than "half Faelid / half HN".
    Last edited by Jarl; 05-21-2009 at 01:06 PM.

  7. #7
    Apricity Supporter Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Lenny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    07-28-2011 @ 11:09 AM
    Location
    Nearby
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Scandogermania
    Country
    United States
    Taxonomy
    Gracile CM
    Politics
    "Ethnocultural-continuity"
    Religion
    Mit dem Schwan
    Gender
    Posts
    1,067
    Blog Entries
    3
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 24
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    This is definitely true. There's a great account of taxonomy's decline in anthropology (mostly as a result of the Boazian revolution) in the most recent (Vol. 8, Num. 3) issue of The Occidental Quarterly called "Taxonomic Approaches to Race."
    Sounds interesting, Could you post the article?

    If it's not online and you have it in print [I was a subscriber a few years back but didn't renew] but lack OCD software, just scan it and toss the imgs my way and I can OCD it. I'm sure they'd be OK with us doing that.
    Hail to You

  8. #8
    Apricity Supporter Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Lenny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    07-28-2011 @ 11:09 AM
    Location
    Nearby
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Scandogermania
    Country
    United States
    Taxonomy
    Gracile CM
    Politics
    "Ethnocultural-continuity"
    Religion
    Mit dem Schwan
    Gender
    Posts
    1,067
    Blog Entries
    3
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 24
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny View Post
    The idea that Nordic evolved purely from local CMs is not plausible, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utram View Post
    IMO this polymorphism among Europeans is a product of microevolution through sexual selection.

    That sexual selection spread the prevalance of gracile and Nordic types is for sure, but it must have spread them from a (small) "parent stock" of protoNordics that evolved elsewhere.

    I don't think there was enough time to change head shapes so much, in a totally independent manner. Do we have any examples of this anywhere else? (Of course, in "Out-of-Africa world", all human head shapes evolved in a mere 50,000 years from an original Negroid population.).
    Hail to You

  9. #9
    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Online
    01-17-2012 @ 01:00 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    German
    Taxonomy
    Atlantid
    Gender
    Posts
    5,341
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 364
    Given: 0

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    We dont know for sure how the Cromagnoid and Aurignacoid form tradition came up prehistorically, thats all we can say about that.

    It seems to be more likely however, that the Cromagnoid variants might have came up in a more Northern territory, possibly with a centre in Central Asia, even with a original connection to the Proto-Mongoloids from which they branched off, with Cromagnoid Europids on one side and Northern Mongoloids on the other.

    Its suspicious however, that we see a similar pattern in Mongoloids, with rather euryprosopic Tungo-Sibirids in the coldest and leptodolichomorphic Sinoids in the temperate-warm regions.

    Anyway, thats just speculative, whats sure is that it would be a lot easier to explain if there wouldnt have been Cromagnoids in North Africa and among the Guanches of the Canary Islands, because they really spoil the cold adaptation theory to a certain degree.

    The typical Northern Cromagnid variants however are definitely more cold adapted higher hunter variants originally. That they are so relatively robust and muscular, rather meso- pyknomorphic build, with a great body mass, has a lot to do with cold adaptation.

    As soon as the Ice Age is over and the warm period begins, we can see a decline of Cromagnoid variants and a spread of Aurignacoid ones, even in Mesolithic times already.

    The biological logic is every investment must meet certain expectations of a positive cost - benefit calculation.

    If you have to invest more energy and material into a huge body, which produces more heat and is very effective, you get troubles if there is not as much food around as the higher hunters of colder Europe could get, especially rich in proteins.

    The advantages the Cromagnoid variants had, were equally matched by the robust Aurignacoids, in some respects they were even outcompeted, so their only real advantage was cold resistence and absolute strength. If those two dont balance the higher investment out, which wasnt the case after the Ice Age in most temperate European areas, you have to expect a decline of the Cromagnoid forms. Thats just what happened.

    In Neolithic times the nutrition became even worse, while the climate became even warmer and at the same time the high level individual and group selection more intensive. So it depended a lot on how intensive the high level selection was and how good the nutrition, as well as how the climate was, whether Cromagnids could stand a chance.

    In that time more and more progressive Aurignacoid forms, of which we often can't say for sure whether they were Nordoid or Mediterranoid, spread throughout Europe, while the progressive Cromagnoid forms kept ground where it was possible, in some cases they even expanded again over time, mostly among herder-warriors, as one has to expect, since among poor tillers they were just a phase out model. The progressive and rather robust Aurignacoids were particularly common among herder-warriors of the flat-fertile land, among those populations which lived in favourable areas, but had to fight on an individual and collective level with high level selective pressures. Especially along rivers and coasts they spread, but soon overtook the grasslands, while leaving unfavourable, inland, forested and colder areas largely alone.

    This position being overtaken by derivatives of Cromagnoids, partly of older and more archaic Cromagnoid lines. These derivatives are the result of an adaptation to a cheaper version, which saves energy and storages it, while keeping up a minimum physical standard and better psychic adaptation to the sedentary life of a poor farmer in the temperate and cold area. This tendencies were Alpinisation and Baltisation.

    So one could say many Cromagnoid lines of Europe simply adapted to the new conditions of low energy, high epidemic and social pressures, negative selection in many respects, by becoming Alpinised and Baltised, reduced, more pyknomorphic, brachycephalic and somewhat more infantile quite often.

    Only in those regions they could keep their original form, which allowed this to survive with higher energy levels and more challenges. Since this Cromagnoid derivatives are even more efficient as an adaptation to a poor peasant existence, from the Middle Ages on in particular, they even substituted the Aurignacoid forms, which were as well less cost effective if you switch off the higher level individual and group selection, together with a worsening of climate and living conditions. Especially in those areas, which were further away from the coast and rivers, in which fully dependent tillers suffered from malnutrition, plagues and social pressures, the smaller-reduced Cromagnoid derivatives could win ground.

    At the same time in the South-East a new specialised form of progressive-mature variants came up as an adaptation to the life of a herder-warrior in the mountains, the end result of a process we call Dinarisation. From these centres of Dinarisation the new type spread and quite often we see side by side Alpinoid tillers and Dinaroid herders in the Alpine habitat, as two rather complementary forms of the brachycephalic Europid spectrum.

    In some Mediterranoid areas further South and along the coasts, we can see partial Alpinisation or further Gracilisation among the farmers. The Aurignacoid reduction is no fundamental change as with the Cromagnoid derivatives, but just "a smaller sized version", which makes sense primarily in the warmer climate, because of the Bergmann's Rule.

    The Allen's Rule is quite clear too, with extremities becoming shorter, the body more compact and rounded, because of the relation of maximum volume : minimum surface in the cold and minimum volume : maximum surface in the hot areas.
    A larger body can generally create more heat with a relatively lower volume, so usually larger bodies are preferred in the cold, in humans in combination of these rules, primarily a larger trunk in the extreme cold.

    If we combine the effects of energy intake and climate, we can say:
    Extremely cold: Reduced and borealised, Eastbaltid, Lappid and Northern Mongoloid, on the fringes of the Europoid spectrum, usually out of the classic Europid variation.

    Cold with high energy and general physical demands: Cromagnid (Dalofaelid)
    Cold with low energy: Cromagnoid derivatives.

    Temperate cold: Cromagnid, Cromagnoid derivatives, large-robust (Bergmann's Rule!) Aurignacoid (Nordid, Atlantomediterranid, Iranid etc.)

    Temperate warm: The same plus gracile Mediterranid

    Hot dry: Primarily Aurignacoid, stronger tendency towards gracile leptomorphic and shorter trunk.

    Hot-moisty: Usually outside of the Europid spectrum, only Gracilindid made it partly, but even they prefer the less extreme areas and avoid all tropical forests of course, spread with cultural techniques, original hunter-gatherers didnt had while clearing the forests with the axe and fire...

    Compare with the climate-race map I made:


    and consider the fact that we had warmer (spread of Nordoid and Mediterranoid from Mesolithi/Neolithic-Iron Age, but with a peak in the Bronze Age) as well as colder (Little Ice Age, Alpinisation, Baltisation) phases in which things were different from today.

    Lundman's racial body types:


    Note the progressive-balanced trias from the temperate zones of juvenile, virile and mature, with all these three being widespread among Mediterranoid, Nordoid, Dinaroid and Cromagnoid, but according to Lundman juvenile more common among Gracilmediterranids, virile in Nordeuropids and mature in Dinaroids.

    The Borealised body is one sided cold adapted (Eastbaltid, Lappid), as is Polar-Protomorphic (Northern Mongoloid), while the infantile being fully reduced with earlier ontogenetic determination. Afro-Negrid and Tropic-Protomorph represent the (very) dry-hot adaptation.

    If the basic climate rules are not met in the distribution of traits in living populations, we can assume different selective (f.e. high level individual and group selection due to social dominance and warlike etc.) trends or migrations. Therefore the Nordoid type is definitely and in no way cold adapted, but only more so in comparison to gracile Mediterranoid, simply because of size (volume). To assume its greatest spread either from inside the present variation in Northern hunter-gatherers or from outside (most likely both!) of it in the warm period is therefore logical.

    So for the Cromagnid biohistory, we can say as long as very effective, heavy build hunters were advantageous in a cold environment, it was their time, because they could beat the Bergmann's Rule to a certain degree, by becoming only somewhat shorter ranged, because of their sheer body mass, which made them physically superior in comparison to reduced-short ranged Borealised variants.

    But this body mass is cost intensive and has to be justified in evolutionary terms, so when it became warmer, only in the better and best areas with high level selective pressures they were really favoured and even there they always had to compete with the equally effective robust Aurignacoids of more leptomorphic habitus, which were comparably cheaper.

    The sexual selection might indeed have played a role, but overall I dont think a primary one. The main sexual selection effect might have to do with the lower effective selection for high level males in sedentary farmer societies and more compliant individuals of both sexes. Possibly we can say that mesomorphic Cromagnids were/are oftentimes even more introverted and less social than the average Aurignacoid (though those have a certain proportion of very schizothymic-introverted individuals), which didnt really help in the larger communities which came up from Neolithic times neither. But thats again very speculative.
    Last edited by Agrippa; 05-25-2009 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Last Online
    06-26-2013 @ 10:21 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    .
    Ethnicity
    .
    Gender
    Posts
    2,677
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 32
    Given: 0

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    I would to like to once again touch upon the subject of Caucasian morholopgical variation. There are several significant points I would like to emphasise.

    We dont know for sure how the Cromagnoid and Aurignacoid form tradition came up prehistorically, thats all we can say about that.
    What I was always concerned with were the broad inferences made on a very narrow basis. Specifically – the European UP skulls. There are several dozens of them – and as Coon stressed himself they constitute a very homogenous group. Now, the real question is – what’s Aurignacid and what’s Cromagnid? Is there any credible foundation which would allow us to divide the European UP skulls into two separate groups – possibly indicating their different origins?

    To me (and, I am afraid, to most modern anthropologists) such an assertion seems totally unfounded. We might as well be looking at extreme specimens from the same population. And indeed the famous Cro Magnon 1 skull is such an extreme specimen among other UP Euro skulls. How can we then assume there were two different UP groups with different evolutionary history if we do not know anything about the size, number of migrations into Paleolithic Europe nor the variance of the traits within these population? There could have been not just 2, but 3,4 or 5 different migration waves – each with its own specific morphological character. Although I understand some modern individuals are more dolichocephalic and euryprosopic, while others are more leptoprosopic, and, consequently, some resemble more Cro Magnon 1, while others resemble more the Cheddar Man, I see no reason to treat these “Cromagnids” and “Aurignacids” as real entities... in the way we treat “Nordics” and “Meds” today. Can we assume anything at all - particularly if modern genetics and inheritance studies defy the existence of strict morphological types?

    We also face a different problem – the notorious ascribing of modern phenotypes to 30,000 year old fossils. As if modern robust individuals descended directly from “Cro- Magnids”, while gracile from “Aurignacids”. First of all, by doing so we already pre-assume the real character of these racial groups, which is highly disputable. Secondly, family inheritance studies indicate that there is no clear-cut distinction between dominant-recessive inheritance of robust and gracile forms. Genomes work together. As a matter of fact all genes form a dense network of interactions, and so each one has some effect. New combinations often produce new phenotypes, sometimes quite different to parental ones. Dolichocephalic individuals can have brachycephalic offspring and vice-versa. Likewise, there is no general rule for the inheritance of absolute measurements. Nordics can be bred from “Alpines” and robust Cro-Magnids… just like Cheddar-Man or Combe-Capelle Man could have been bred from Cro-Magnon-like parents (or vice versa). Coon wrote:

    It is amazing to find that the Upper Palaeolithic men were less variable, on the whole, than the inhabitants of London who were buried in plague pits during the seventeenth century. They were less variable than the modern rural population of a small section of Carinthia, and only a little more so than the skulls of the extremely isolated Greenland Eskimo, whose time span covered at most a few centuries, or the Egyptians who were buried at Gizeh between the twenty-sixth and thirtieth dynasties.
    The great complexity of race in modern Europe is largely due to post-Pleistocene migrations from other continents, and the retention of local types in modern populations reflects the greater isolability in smaii regions of farmers than of hunters. But the Upper Pleistocene people were by no means completely homogeneous, as will be shown later by an examination of individual crania, in their chronological and geographical contexts.

    But, in response to Coons argument, which population is “completely homogenous” if even monozygotic twins are not identical? So where is the distinction, then? Coon's un-homogenity is arbitrary! On one hand he says these skulls are like inhabitants of XVII cen London or Greenland - on the other he personally sees them as "not completely homogenous"... This Aurignacid vs Cromagnid system seems to be an echo of the XIX century Nordic vs Alpine system. The only problem here is that:

    1. The roots of the Nordic-Alpine-Med lie in studies of whole European populations and ethnicities. Using meaned measurements from thousands of individuals, inferences were made about the “average” character. And so Nordic populations gave rise to Nordic race, populations from Alpine France and Germany to Alpine race. Now, it is quite blatant that these studies were originally aimed at local, modern racial trends – using data derived from very large samples. These means were naturally arranged according to a village, province, country etc. (different anthropometric studies had different “resolution”). But European UP skulls cannot be divided according to nation or province and, what is more, they do not constitute a large sample - there are no more than a hundred. We cannot divide them so easily as we do not know what populations they originally belonged to. Were they part of the same breeding units? Was there any continuity between them in time and space??? These questions are crucial in racial studies, but, in case of Euro UP skulls, we cannot give here any concrete answer. These skulls are separated sometimes by several millennia and hundreds of miles… We cannot establish the variance of the breeding populations they were part of. In many cases we’ve got only SINGLE findings - therefore we have to treat these UP means with great care. Particularly any lumping into discrete groups should be treated with caution. Such experiments and “groupings” they produce are suitable for variation studies, but cannot establish the real character of the breeding groups and determine how many major races/populations existed in UP Europe. What is more – being skulls - they lack soft parts and pigmentation, and’ve been resting in the soil for a long time. Consequently their measurements cannot be directly compared to modern living means. Now, in every population, even Scandinavian, we can see Nordics, Alpines and, arguably, even some Med-like individuals. Broad types breed gracile types and gracile types breed robust. Chromosomes recombine in meiosis, genes are re-shuffled, and new combinations arise… The whole process is stochastic and governed by the rules of probability. There is thus no ultimate universal law of inheritance (like that for instance broad types can breed graciles, but not the other way round). The claim that modern robust individuals descend from robust UP forms, while modern gracile individuals descend more from gracile UP forms is thus absurd. One might have in his family tree a whole lot of pure Nordics and appear more Dalo-Falid... Populations are never "completely homogenous" and this claim cannot constitute evidence nor give any credit to the purely arbitrary "Cromagnid-Aurignacid" division.

    Because of the problems described above - I cannot see how we can, without violating the principles of scientific method, bestow a status of real race-like entities (like "Alpine" or "Nordic" populations) upon CroMagnid-Aurginacid or any other arbitrary grouping of European UP skulls.



    2. While we can evaluate and study current trends in Caucasian morphology, in case of UP, we can’t. We are talking about a very limited cranial series, scattered across Europe in time (10,000 to max 45 - 50,000 years ago) and space. To split them or divide them into discrete groups and claim these groups existed for real and had different evolutionary history is a folly with no backing. Personally, I cannot see the logic behind attempts to derive modern Euro variation directly from a single UP skull – like Cro Magnon 1 or Combe-Capelle. It is like claiming that Nordics can only breed Nordics, or Cro-magnids cant breed Nordics etc… and these “pure lines” have proliferated and perpetuated themselves throughout centuries… In other words - it is a nonsense.

    It seems to be more likely however, that the Cromagnoid variants might have came up in a more Northern territory, possibly with a centre in Central Asia, even with a original connection to the Proto-Mongoloids from which they branched off, with Cromagnoid Europids on one side and Northern Mongoloids on the other. Its suspicious however, that we see a similar pattern in Mongoloids, with rather euryprosopic Tungo-Sibirids in the coldest and leptodolichomorphic Sinoids in the temperate-warm regions. Anyway, thats just speculative, whats sure is that it would be a lot easier to explain if there wouldnt have been Cromagnoids in North Africa and among the Guanches of the Canary Islands, because they really spoil the cold adaptation theory to a certain degree. The typical Northern Cromagnid variants however are definitely more cold adapted higher hunter variants originally. That they are so relatively robust and muscular, rather meso- pyknomorphic build, with a great body mass, has a lot to do with cold adaptation.
    I think it’s rather the opposite. Cro-Magnon skeletons were rather tall. Taller than Combe-Capelle. Their noses were prominent and relatively broad, their bones were long and gracile indicating they came from a place with a warm, possibly arid, climate. At least that is what I read. Good evidence for this is that very similar types were common all around the Mediterranean - from Morocco and Atlas Mountans down to the Nile valley and Nubia...


    Besides, how can we know if a skeleton, or for that matter – a skull, is pyknomorphic if that term strictly describes the soft tissue composition??? The old man from Cro-Magnon could as well have been a skinny astenic.
    Last edited by Jarl; 06-09-2009 at 06:19 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •