View Poll Results: Who are the Luxembourgers?

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • Germans

    8 28.57%
  • French

    2 7.14%
  • "Belgians" or Dutch

    5 17.86%
  • They're their own ethnicity

    13 46.43%
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 27 of 27

Thread: Luxembourgers - who are they?

  1. #21
    ………...……… Stanley's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Online
    01-04-2024 @ 04:01 AM
    Ethnicity
    ¯
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Posts
    684
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,169
    Given: 973

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Came across this thread, suppose I'll give it a bump.

    My great-grandmother's parents were from Luxemburg and came to the Midwest in 1890-something. They considered themselves Germans. Now, I'm not sure whether or not that sentiment was shared by all Luxemburgers, so I want to ask anyone more knowledgeable about Luxemburgian matters: Would that have been normal then, for Luxemburgers to identify as Germans? Or is it more likely that my forebears were ethnic Germans who happened to live in, say, eastern Luxemburg?

    (By the way, I'm spelling it without the 'o' on purpose...)

  2. #22
    Member Burkean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Online
    04-09-2014 @ 08:30 AM
    Location
    Moscow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Ancestry
    Russia;Ukraine;Poland;Turkey
    Country
    Russia
    Politics
    National Conservative
    Religion
    Russian Orthodox
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Posts
    217
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 50
    Given: 54

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Of course they are a separate nation. When I was in Belgium and Luxembourg last summer, I felt their difference even when drove into the Belgian Luxembourg: it has different landscape, more hilly and wooded so it looked like a piece of the Middle Ages) When I went to the Luxembourg itself, this feeling was deepened. And when I was visiting their sights I've got the idea that they are very proud of their specificity and their national symbols. Also, as it was mentioned above, they have their own language that is German but has its origin in other branch of dialects than literary German language does.
    Also, I think all historical territories of Luxembourg sholud be returned back to it. They are pleasant and decent nation

  3. #23
    Member Burkean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Online
    04-09-2014 @ 08:30 AM
    Location
    Moscow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Ancestry
    Russia;Ukraine;Poland;Turkey
    Country
    Russia
    Politics
    National Conservative
    Religion
    Russian Orthodox
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Posts
    217
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 50
    Given: 54

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    But I really don't understand the idea that they are dutch. Personally I find absolutely nothing dutch in them. They even don't touch dutch-speaking area.

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Online
    10-05-2014 @ 02:26 PM
    Ethnicity
    European
    Country
    European Union
    Gender
    Posts
    9,734
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,296
    Given: 3,160

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Burkean View Post
    Of course they are a separate nation. When I was in Belgium and Luxembourg last summer, I felt their difference even when drove into the Belgian Luxembourg: it has different landscape, more hilly and wooded so it looked like a piece of the Middle Ages) When I went to the Luxembourg itself, this feeling was deepened. And when I was visiting their sights I've got the idea that they are very proud of their specificity and their national symbols. Also, as it was mentioned above, they have their own language that is German but has its origin in other branch of dialects than literary German language does.
    Also, I think all historical territories of Luxembourg sholud be returned back to it. They are pleasant and decent nation
    Luxembourg is about as cuddly as countries come: prosperous, picturesque and delightfully tiny. At 999 square miles, it is the smallest but one of the European Union states [1]. You could drive its length (55 miles) or its width (35 miles) in less time than it takes to watch a feature-length movie — provided you don’t stop at one of the many touristy villages or vineyards along the way. The capital, also called Luxembourg [2], is a cozy city of barely 100,000 souls; its major problem is not drugs or urban decay, but the apparently unfixable fact that it’s rather boring [3].

    Luxembourg is the only country in the world ruled by a grand duke [4], which sounds more like the setup to a fairy tale than a real-world constitutional arrangement. The grand duchy is a founding member of the European Union and NATO [5], and hosts the European Court of Justice, Eurostat (the European Statistical Office), the Secretariat of the European Parliament and other supranational institutions. Luxembourg expects to be listened to and taken seriously by its international peers. And it is: of its last four prime ministers, one went on to become president of the United Nations General Assembly, another of the European Commission, and a third of the Eurogroup [6].

    All that from a country less populous than Hanover, Germany’s 13th largest city. It is so small that even tiny Belgium is able to smirk about the grand duchy’s size, replicating the scorn heaped upon itself by its own larger neighbors. Why is Luxembourg so determined to punch above its weight? Could it be that it has a grander idea of itself than its neighbors have? An elevated sense of self is a useful survival tool, for countries as well as people. But Luxembourgers could argue that they don’t have delusions of grandeur, but rather memories of grandeur. Once upon a time, you see, there was a Greater Luxembourg.



    The state’s roots go back to 963 A.D., when Siegfried, count of the Ardennes, acquired Lucilinburhuc, an old Roman fort with a Frankish name [7]. Over the next few centuries, the House of Luxembourg would choose its wars and wives wisely, and the County of Luxembourg would grow to encompass an area four times the size of the present grand duchy.

    Indeed, Luxembourg’s international ambitions, mainly within the vast and chaotic German Empire, are almost as old as the house itself. It produced three Holy Roman emperors, several kings of Bohemia and a fair share of archbishops. Perhaps Luxembourg’s most lasting impression on the empire was the Golden Bull of 1365, a decree that would determine how Holy Roman emperors would be elected for over four centuries, until the empire’s dissolution in 1806. It was issued by Emperor Charles IV of Luxembourg, king of Bohemia [8], who in 1354 elevated his ancestral county to a duchy.

    Unfortunately, Luxembourg soon lost control of its own fate. In 1441 Duchess Elizabeth sold it to Burgundy; it later passed into Hapsburg hands and was eventually integrated into the Netherlands as one of its 17 provinces. Lack of an independent dynasty meant an end to Luxembourg’s influence in the world, and it eventually fell under the geopolitical knife. Like once enormous Poland, to the east, it suffered three partitions, resulting in the bonsai nation it currently is.

    In fact, the three countries surrounding present-day Luxembourg all own territory that once belonged to the Duchy of Luxembourg, and they all at one point or another demanded its total annexation into their own territory. In 1659, the Treaty of the Pyrenees [9] accorded just over 400 square miles (or 10 percent of its size at the time) of Luxembourg to France, which gained the fortified cities of Stenay, Thionville and Montmédy. At the Congress of Vienna in 1815, Prussia got the fort at Bitburg, and all lands west of a new riverine border [10], further reducing Luxembourg by 880 square miles (or an additional 24 percent of the original). Part of these lands would go to Belgium after the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

    But the worst loss occurred in 1839, when the Netherlands accepted the Treaty of London, formally recognising Belgian independence. In return, the Dutch king William I got to keep the eastern halves of Limburg and Luxembourg, provinces which had nevertheless cheered on Belgium’s secession. As a result, the grand duchy lost its western half (1,687 square miles, or 42 percent of its territory at its largest extension) to Belgium, which still has a province also called Luxembourg. William remained grand duke of the eastern half of Luxembourg, establishing a personal union [11] with the Netherlands that would last until 1890.

    And of course the country didn’t avoid the horrors of 20th century Europe, either: in the first half of the 20th century, Germany brutally occupied Luxembourg twice, annexing it outright the second time.

    That list of unfortunate events would be enough justification for a grand duchy to be brimming with resentment, with local politicians falling over one another demanding the return of the lost territories, a condition common to many once grand nations. But political extremism is a fringe movement in Luxembourg politics —probably so small that it can be identified as that one guy fuming behind his Weissbier in a bar in Echternach.

    Instead, Luxembourg has sublimated irredentism, that unpalatable side dish of nationalism, into something much more powerful. Outwardly, the Luxembourgers are the best students of the European class. Their national motto, rendered in Luxembourgish, is: “Mir wölle bleiwe, wat mir sin” (“We want to stay what we are”), a good summary of the folksy, don’t-rock-the-boat conservatism that dominates the political scene.

    But the real slogan might just as well be: “We want to become what we were”: European power brokers, as they were in the Middle Ages. Luxembourg is stealthily positioning itself as the central pivot of a new supernational zone within Europe, generically called the Grande Région.

    This Greater Region of Luxembourg is one of Europe’s many cross-border cooperations called Euroregions, welding Luxembourg with the Walloon region of Belgium (including its German-speaking area), the French region of Lorraine, and the German states of Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate. The Greater Region [12] is much wider than the old Greater Luxembourg, comprising an area of 25,250 square miles and counting more than 11 million inhabitants [13].

    Ostensibly only a forum to discuss economic, social, cultural and tourist affairs, the Greater Region of Luxembourg could nevertheless be seen as the inchoate resurrection of an ancient European entity: Middle Francia [14], the centerpiece of Charlemagne’s empire. It’s been a long time coming: While the empire’s eastern and western parts later evolved into Germany and France, Middle Francia — extending in a narrow corridor from the North Sea to the Mediterranean — did not survive its creation at the Treaty of Verdun, in 843 A.D., for very long.

    Perhaps this is Luxembourg’s insurance policy in case the European Union goes to the dogs. Plan A is to be the best student in the European class, at which is excels. Plan B is to recreate Middle Francia, but this time as a viable third way between France and Germany. Middle Francia’s undoing was its lack of cultural cohesion. Perhaps the Luxembourgers, fluently trilingual, can turn that defect around to an advantage. And maybe one day, Europeans tired of a superstate dominated by France and Germany will resolutely declare, from Amsterdam to Athens: “Mir wölle bleiwe, wat mir sin.”
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...er-luxembourg/

  5. #25
    Like Longbowman, but white Rudel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Last Online
    08-24-2021 @ 03:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    Français
    Country
    France
    Region
    Limousin
    Y-DNA
    I-Z58
    mtDNA
    T2b
    Age
    31
    Gender
    Posts
    4,382
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 8,037
    Given: 1,861

    2 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawspeaker View Post
    Joining France would be a good idea to ensure the destruction of Walloon culture and their ethnic identity since France, with it's traditions of Jacobinism and centralisation has already wrecked and Parisinafied just about every French region and they would definitely dump all the immigrants there (and their offspring then can't be dislodged anymore because of the French nationality laws).
    Well, except that Wallonia is partially the cradle of French culture, the cradle of the first race of France (the Merovingians) and so on. Being forced to treat them as foreigners is an oddity.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawspeaker View Post
    France includes Martinique and Reunion and as such France never has any problems in controlling non-French places. Look at South Flanders, for example.
    Flanders is a part of France that drifted away (regardless of language, defining ethnicity by linguistics came much latter), not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawspeaker View Post
    Does the same go for Flemish and Breton in France ? No it doesn't.. and you know that too.
    I'm personally not against giving some space to indigenous dialects in France, but you've got to be realistic. The towns in Brittany where people would actually be able to understand a council hold in Breton can be counted in the fingers of one hand.
    I'm not even talking about the Westhoek, where Flemish is now essentially symbolic and people would rather speak standard Dutch for transborder activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tchek View Post
    Actually, Dutch/Flemish culture is not an inferior culture at all... the conquest of America, the painters, the sailors, protestantism (in the case of NL), the architecture...
    Now, that doesn't mean it should be shoven down everyone's throat.

    Unfortunately I must say, the French education is totally silent toward the NL, for some reason... The French know about Italy, a little about England... but about Netherlands? I noticed that even among french historians, the Dutch revolt is almost unknown. For many French, the Netherlands is as known as Estonia or Slovakia, that's a bit sad.
    Maybe the idea of Netherlands is fundamentally anti-French (the backfiring of Napoleon conquest?), I don't know.
    You're right about the Arts. Though virtually everybody knows about Rembrandt, that's a no brainer.

    I'm also sad people don't know about the artistic dynamic between France, the Flanders (then the jewel of Burgundy) and Italy during the end of the Middle Ages. It's been decisive for painting and music.

    Overall people have no feelings towards the Netherlands whatsoever. It's just that place with the city that sells weed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawspeaker View Post
    I think the main reason why so many flunk their French is because it is (at present) a useless subject. So I think that learning French should be made useful: dump French French and instead buy Belgian books and teach the children to speak Belgian French and since Belgium is just around the corner for us this is where the schools can plan their trips: day trips to Brussels and Namur (if they are close enough to the border) and school holidays in the Ardennes (it's just around the corner and relatively affordable). And student exchanges ? Mainly with Flemish and Walloon students. In that way it is no longer a useless subject but a tool for inter-Benelux cooperation.
    Belgian French is nothing more than an accent, it's not a dialect or anything different (unlike Walloon).

    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    English < Norman = French

    cabbage < caboche = chou

    candle < caundèle = chandelle

    castle < caste(l) = château

    cauldron < caudron = chaudron

    causeway < cauchie = chaussée

    catch < cachi = chasser

    cater < acater = acheter

    wicket < viquet = guichet

    plank < planque = planche

    pocket < pouquette = poche

    fork < fouorque = fourche

    garden < gardin = jardin

    cattle < *cate(l) = cheptel
    Caboche still exists in modern French as slang for "head". It's similar to "noggin".

    It may interest you that, as far as we now from what's left of it, proto-Insular Romance (the Vulgar Latin spoken in Britain that would have evolved to a Romance language without the hordes of barbarian German seafarers that invaded it) was, like the Central
    French (not necessarily Parisian) of Anglo-Norman times and like Modern French, a "ch" Romance language, while the Norman dialect was a "c" one.

    Even if England and Burgundy had won the war against France, which would have made a crown over the Channel and English disappear (if only by virtue of demographics, the putative Anglo-French lands being much more populated), the subsisting French in Britain wouldn't have been strictly Anglo-Norman but something more pan-French, as England had been culturally inserting itself within the larger French-speaking world (the courts of Normandy-England, Champagne, Flanders, Lorraine etc. have played a bigger role initially in the literarization of French than the court of France proper, and by a long shot).


    As for Luxembourg, it's commonly joke in Lorraine that it's one of our départements that happens to be sovereign.

    Regarding the article above, I'm tired of that bloody statement : « While the empire’s eastern and western parts later evolved into Germany and France. »
    It's purely and simply false. The Easternmost parts indeed evolved in the Germanic magma that became Germany after it was emancipated from Frankish rule, but France was called France before, during and after Carolingian times (considering Francia drifted into France as Latin drifted into French).

  6. #26
    Veteran Member barbatus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Last Online
    02-14-2022 @ 12:00 AM
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Boer-Afrikaner
    Ancestry
    South Africa
    Country
    Canada
    Y-DNA
    R1b1b2a1a2c
    mtDNA
    H3
    Politics
    Afrikaner Nationalism
    Religion
    Calvinism/Reformed Christian
    Gender
    Posts
    1,351
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,279
    Given: 384

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    The Luxembourgers are a distinct ethnicity. They are perhaps most related to the Germans. As several other posters have stated, Luxembourgers have their own language and culture separate from their neighbors. Any attempt to claim the Luxembourgers are German, French, Belgian (be it Flemish or Walloon) or Dutch is merely expansionist nationalism on their part and has no basis in reality. It would be similar in nature to claiming Slovenes are "Mountain Croats".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazimiera View Post
    I'm trying very hard to imagine myself eating my cats with my asshole. It's not working.

  7. #27
    Like Longbowman, but white Rudel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Last Online
    08-24-2021 @ 03:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    Français
    Country
    France
    Region
    Limousin
    Y-DNA
    I-Z58
    mtDNA
    T2b
    Age
    31
    Gender
    Posts
    4,382
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 8,037
    Given: 1,861

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by barbatus View Post
    It would be similar in nature to claiming Slovenes are "Mountain Croats".
    Slovenes are mountain Croats.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •