German Genocide - Thirty Years War

[Loki]

To be honest, I don't think that the Troubles and the Thirty Years War can be compared in any way.

100% agreed. It totally pales in comparison.

[Joe McCarthy]

The Ottomans, particularly Suleiman, used the Reformation opportunistically against Habsburg Spain. Suleiman's aim was to conquer Europe, and the overtures of the Turks to Protestantism in general should be seen in that light. It was certainly not a gesture borne of altruism.

If anything it just shows what happens when instability is allowed to reign on European soil. The next go 'round might be the Turks. Maybe someone else.

[The Lawspeaker]

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European history is something you will never understand, Joe. Better stick to America. It's already complicated enough for us down here.

I just thought of a Dutch expression that is still being used:

"Geen geld, geen Zwitsers."

"No money, no Swiss." It means that you have no money you can't afford anything. It dates back to the days of the Eighty and Thirty Years War when the Dutch used Swiss mercenaries who were famed for their skills with the halberd.

The expression itself comes from French:

"point d'argent, point de Suisse."

[Loki]

The Otomans, particularly Suleiman, used the Reformation opportunistically against Habsburg Spain. Suleiman's aim was to conquer Europe, and the overtures of the Turks to Protestantism in general should be seen in that light. It was certainly not a gesture borne of altruism.

If anything it just shows what happens when instability is allowed to reign on European soil. The next go 'round might be the Turks. Maybe someone else.

If not for the Ottoman involvement, I probably won't have been alive today. Of course they used it opportunistically but it saved Germany and much of Northern Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

[YOUTUBE]ct0ZqyJUfY8[/YOUTUBE]

[Joe McCarthy]

If not for the Ottoman involvement, I probably won't have been alive today. Of course they used it opportunistically but it saved Germany and much of Northern Europe.

In what way were Ottoman actions so decisive in the Thirty Years War? From what I know their involvement consisted mostly of a short war with Poland in the early going and support for Hungarian Protestants in making incursions into Habsburg territory.

[The Lawspeaker]

In what way were Ottoman actions so decisive in the Thirty Years War? From what I know their involvement consisted mostly of a short war with Poland in the early going and support for Hungarian Protestants in making incursions into Habsburg territory.

Which also led to more Imperial (Habsburg) troops having to be used there. There was a great deal of Ottoman involvement in the Eighty Years' War. The Thirty Years' War and the Eighty Years' War overlap each other a great deal and it was a series religious conflicts, political conflicts, personal conflicts between several rulers (vendetta's),and all sorts of nasty power struggles and it was everything at the same time: one huge clusterfuck of ancient (and recently acquired) hatreds boiling over at the same time with what is now Belgium, Germany, Czech Republic and Luxembourg taking the brunt of the mayhem.

It can actually be seen as the first general outburst of inter- European violence that basically involved all of Europe as before that wars were usually more localised affairs (prince vs. prince, king vs. king of states bordering each other).

It would be fair to say that the two wars (or should we call it a single war as the Eighty Years' War was just a precursor as well as an episode of a general conflict) shaped the course of European history. It started the decline of Spanish importance in Europe, it's social and political consequences led to the English civil war, the fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire and a power shift from the Catholic nations to the protestants like Sweden and the United Provinces as well as to France. And France would prove to be a destabilising factor for two more centuries to come - playing the role Germany has had during the 20th century. All in all: Europe was destabilised for some 2 centuries because of it's magnitude.

The Thirty Years War' (and that is without the deaths of the Dutch Revolt before) led to a total of 8 million + (including civilian casualties.) and was the biggest slaughter in European history until the First World War.

[Joe McCarthy]

Which also led to more Imperial (Habsburg) troops having to be used there. There was a great deal of Ottoman involvement in the Eighty Years' War. The Thirty Years' War and the Eighty Years' War overlap each other a great deal and it was a series religious conflicts, political conflicts, personal conflicts between several rulers (vendetta's),and all sorts of nasty power struggles and it was all the same time: one huge clusterfuck of ancient hatreds boiling over at the same time.

It can actually be seen as the first general outburst of European violence that basically involved all of Europe as before that wars were usually a more localised affair (prince vs. price, king vs. king of states bordering each other).

It would be fair to say that the two wars (or should we call it a single war as the Eighty Years' War was just a precursor as well as an episode of a general conflict) shaped the course of European history. It started the collapse of Spanish Power, the fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire and a power shift from the Catholic nations to the protestants like Sweden and the United Provinces as well as to France. And France would prove to be a destabilising factor for two more centuries to come - playing the role Germany has had during the 20th century.

The Thirty Years War' (and that is without the deaths of the Dutch Revolt before) led to a total of 8 million + (including civilian casualties.) and was the biggest slaughter in European history until the First World War.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to tell us. The Ottoman military involvement in the Eighty Years War was even more minimal, featuring a few sea exchanges and the like between the Habsburgs and Turks. In what way did this save Northern Europeans from getting annihilated? I can see the Dutch getting credit as they were actually fighting effectively, and there was direct intervention by England, etc., but the Ottomans? Not so much...

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm not sure what this is supposed to tell us. The Ottoman military involvement in the Eighty Years War was even more minimal, featuring a few sea exchanges and the like between the Habsburgs and Turks. In what way did this save Northern Europeans from getting annihilated? I can see the Dutch getting credit as they were actually fighting effectively, and there was direct intervention by England, etc., but the Ottomans? Not so much...

Joe. You wouldn't understand: don't bother. If it hadn't been for the Ottomans bothering the Spanish in the Mediterranean before we had the naval power and them fucking up the Balkans and Eastern Europe during the Thirty Years War there is no doubt in my mind that we would have lost the war.

Because if they hadn't that would have meant that during the Eighty Years War the Spanish could have unleashed their full force on us and no divided France or weak England could have stopped that... never mind the Dutch rebels.

[Amapola]

The Otomans, particularly Suleiman, used the Reformation opportunistically against Habsburg Spain. Suleiman's aim was to conquer Europe, and the overtures of the Turks to Protestantism in general should be seen in that light. It was certainly not a gesture borne of altruism.

If anything it just shows what happens when instability is allowed to reign on European soil. The next go 'round might be the Turks. Maybe someone else.

It's true that it was a war of opportunities and interests (like all of them), more than religious factions against each other (modern simplification) as various thousands exceptions show, actually inexplicable exceptions. For example, the second part of the 30 years war was mostly between the two Catholic European super powers: France and the two branches of the Habsburgs.