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Thread: Nose diversity in Europe

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Turkophagos's Avatar
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    Mutation, climate adaption, selection, ...
    Also there's a distance between two parts of the skull that showed a relation with the nose width but I forget what they were. Also weaker a chin makes the nose look bigger.

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    50-inch chest crew Fintorah's Avatar
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    Agrippa's posts were excellent, but he forgot to mention the most important trait of European evolution: sexiness. Just look at this long-nosed beauty (I know she's "the fisting queen" or the "buttsex beauty" or something like that, but she's still sexy):

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Interesting links, however, they do not address the specific issue that I'm interested in here: what were the evolution mechanisms - the specific evolutionary reasons that favored the selection of such longer, narrower, more protruding noses.

    It is not sufficient to just say that it is a "progressive" trait, one must be able to explain its specific selective advantages.

    There must be a better reason than adaptation to climate, which I don't buy at all.
    I have read that it has to do with the general skull shape evolving to give more room to the part of the brain - forget what its called - that's responsible for higher reasoning. This general shapening of the skull, to accomodate the increased brain size, in turn causes the traits that Agrippa wrote about. You also see this same "progessivation" trend through the evolution of non-human hominins to humans.

    Not sure on this though...

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    Senior Member Tomasz's Avatar
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    Exactly, Curtis. Progressive that is positive racial trends are the direction of future positive evolution. We have seen earliest hominids having virtually no chin but with later and later forms it eventually developed. By the same principle, prognathy of earliest hominids gradually changed into mesognathy, eventually reaching ortognathy and retrognathy for which developed Europid and (to lesser extent) Mongolid subraces are well known.

    Same thing goes with noses. Noses gradually changed from very short, flat and wide to more "Europid" forms. That's just positive development. Breeds who are behind in evolution and couldn't keep up with the best exhibit rehash of these primitive features.

  6. #16
    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    Fact is, there is not just one Europid nose, but I know what you want to hear, it is about the high and narrow rooted, high and narrow, prominent and straight to convex, typically Europid progressive nose and similar forms in Mongoloids - which are basically just flatter and otherwise similar, appear in more progressive variants there as well.

    First of all, there is the climatic aspect, a long nose means a long pathway for the air, so if you breath the air will be better cleaned and made "more comfortable" for your lungs and organs.

    This is especially a necessity if the air is very dry - cold too, but if its about the cold temperatures, there is a turning point, from a certain coldness on the too exposed nose will suffer from cold and frostbites too often.

    Actually a dry and/or variable temperatured (= seasons) climate seems to produce this nasal shape more often than anything else.

    But that's just one aspect, the other being the sexual and social selection, the signal character of nasal shapes.

    The typical progressive nasal shape signals in a harmonious form intelligent dominance, something you find more often in people which were under strong higher level individual and group selection, warlike, larger - genetically more variable - groups which had to compete for dominance and the best habitats and ressources.

    Typically, the exact opposite, the short-broad-concave nose is a signal for subdominance in a non-robust and coarse face at least, and otherwise signals a rather brute force, the opposite of intelligence and refinement.

    Also, this kind of nose is favourable for both sexes, because it allows the male to appear dominant in an intelligent way and still refined, the women can be refined and gracile looking too.

    So again, this most progressive shape(s) is (are) the result of selection for the optimum of function in design in more developed people which were under strong high level individual and group selection.

    How important the design-selection is, can be seen in reduced Armenids:
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16079

    Also compare with this:
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...&postcount=346

    Examples for progressive traits which signal intelligent dominance plus physical strength, note the nasal shape:

    Nordid:


    (Atlanto-) Mediterranid:


    Dinarid:


    Iranid:


    Arabid:


    (Nord-) Indid:


    (Sd-) thiopid:


    vs. coarse-archaic, not refined nor as intelligent looking "physical strength" (very disadvantageous in females):





    vs. reduced, subdominant infantile forms (very disadvantageous in males):

    Last edited by Agrippa; 12-02-2010 at 06:19 PM.

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    The voice from the deep Captain Nemo's Avatar
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    I don't have much time today, but here are some of my ideas concerning fundamental aspects of the question.

    This type of nose compensates the convexity previously carried by the prognathe jaw, shifting the semantic center of gravity from the ability to bite to the eye communication.

    It redirects the attention of the observer to the eyes and gives a "derived convexity" to the eyes region - convexity which indicates semantic affirmativeness/importance of a given region.

    The narrowness, apart from giving the expression of metaphoric "sharpnes", (by the way, directly deriving from the forehead, but also influencing the significance of the forehead), liberates the eyes for a larger spectrum of semantic forms and expressions.

    In short, I would see that form as both a shift in semantic center of gravity, and as an opener/facilitator for a broader semantic spectrum of meanings conveyed by the face - a semantic multiplicator.

    PS: The lenght also separates the eyes semantic zone from the mouth and jaws semantic zone, giving them more semantic independence, hence giving greater semantic potential to the face.

    PPS: The interesting question deriving from these semantic considerations is why the White race developped a more semanticized face than other races.

    This I see is a core issue concerning the specificities of the White race and its general spirit. And the question goes both ways, how it came out, and how it influenced further evolution in feedback.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 12-03-2010 at 09:38 AM.

  8. #18
    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    PPS: The interesting question deriving from these semantic considerations is why the White race developped a more semanticized face than other races.
    Well, to begin with, not all Europids have that kind of nose, like explained and secondly, many non-Europids have a nasal shape which is finally closer in certain respects to that described than the other Europid variants.

    Especially among Mongoloids, in particular the more progressive variants like Silvid and Sinid, especially Yakonid and progressive Palaemongolid, also some Neomelanesids show a similar tendency.

    Line of warriors:


    Now imagine hundreds of progressive Aurignacoid males in a line, physically much more impressive than those Neomelenasids, usually more rangy and physically better proportioned, probably with various ornaments too, in a well ordered group like typical for that racial element, confronting a more archaic or infantile people in the Neolithic or Metal Ages...

    Even the first sight might have been impressive, the physical and psychological advantages of the type not considered yet, nor their higher cultural standard when they marched through large parts of Western Eurasia.

    Such a face just tells you: Don't mess with me, I'm more intelligent, stronger and still a good master for you - above average variants of:

    Nordid:


    Mediterranid:




    Irano-Nordid:


    Iranid:


    Arabid:


    This face just tells the others: "Don't hurt me, I'm weak and harmless, no threat at all" - even with a gun:
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    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    More examples for the Neomelanesids - generally more primitive, but certain similar tendencies:
    Those Neomelanesids are generally less progressive, but very warlike people which developed an interesting, often Pseudo-Armenoid, Pseudo-Orientalid nasal shape with a similar tendency, especially the more dominant-progressive variants, which inhabit the most favourable areas, are the strongest Papuan people.

    With paintings and jewelry they further accentuate their midfacial area and nasal shape:




    Highlands Warrior Marching Performance at Sing Sing Festival, Papua New Guinea:


    Note how the midface being highlighted, like the "semantic accentuation" you spoke about in more progressive-Aurignacoid Europids:


    Some of them look fairly Europiform and more progressive than the Melanesid average - imagine him with a lighter skin color:

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    Thanks for the very interesting posts, Agrippa. You have touched upon something I have been contemplating for some time, namely, the inherent superiority of types from highland or mountainous areas. Some traits I think may be typical for such types are narrow and downturned noses (in some only possible to observe when they smile) more bowed zygomatic arches (large cheekbones) and sharper features in general. The corresponding personality is one that is stubborn or difficult, temperamental, and highly intelligent.

    Yes, warlike could also describe it...
    "May you die and be reborn,
    In the limitless extending Light of Godhead."

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