Self-Determination or Territorial Integrity?

[Mosov]

These two principles have often contradicted each other in cases of regions trying to break apart from their parent country. Do you believe that self-determination overrides territorial integrity or the other way around?

For example, if a given territory of a land has a legitimate reason for separation and expresses that will democratically, do the people of that territory have the inherent right to self-determination and self-governance? Or does the territorial integrity of the country they are in supersede any such will?

[Joe McCarthy]

A thorny question. I think democratic ideals often clash with reality and pose serious security concerns. In the case of the US, for example, had the Confederacy succeeded in seceding from the Union it would have opened up the entire country to the threat of foreign influence and intervention. Historically division has very often led to conquest by foreign powers.

In truth, if countries break up, it is often not just the 'nation' seceding that benefits, but rival states. The Russians would just love it if some secessionist movement caught fire in the US, for example.

[Ouistreham]

The Russians would just love it if some secessionist movement caught fire in the US, for example.

Mr Joe McCarthy could have mentioned "The Chinese", "The Mexicans, "The Muslims", who all would equally rejoice in the U.S. of A. were to split.

But no, his agenda wanted him to say "the Russians".

Since you hate Europeans that much, what exactly are you doing here?

[Joe McCarthy]

Mr Joe McCarthy could have mentioned "The Chinese", "The Mexicans, "The Muslims", who all would equally rejoice in the U.S. of A. were to split.

But no, his agenda wanted him to say "the Russians".

Since you hate Europeans that much, what exactly are you doing here?

I mentioned the Russians because unlike Mexico and China, they have prominent figures who salivate over the US breaking up.

[SilverKnight]

Self-Determination, I strongly believe in inheritance.

[Anarch]

Self determination, absolutely. Had the Confederacy successfully seceeded, I have little doubt Confederate and Union guerillas (as well as standing armies) would've waged a successful campaign against foreign intrusion on what is now the US. I'm not convinced either side would've hated each other to the extent they'd welcome concrete foreign 'assistance' in fighting each other, had the north simply accepted Southern independence and not waged the northern war of aggression.

[Joe McCarthy]

Self determination, absolutely. Had the Confederacy successfully seceeded, I have little doubt Confederate and Union guerillas (as well as standing armies) would've waged a successful campaign against foreign intrusion on what is now the US. I'm not convinced either side would've hated each other to the extent they'd welcome concrete foreign 'assistance' in fighting each other, had the north simply accepted Southern independence and not waged the northern war of aggression.

As it was the Confederacy committed treason by actively seeking foreign intervention. They offered Napoleon III cotton at cut rate prices if he'd help break the naval blockade of New Orleans. The French only declined because the British refused to help them.

Waging some dumb guerilla campaign would of course been entirely unnecessary and implausible had the blasted Confederates not seceded in the first place.

[Zephyr]

This question has no meaning in the New World except for Quebec.

As the matter a fact it's even opposite. Colombia and Venezuela are different countries based on nothing. Mere political games. Colonial countries who split, did it because of political factions, not ethnic consciousness.

Look at how the USA states divide. Some are just squares.

In the Old World, Wales is a nation, Catalunya is a nation, Brittany is a nation, not just arbitrary drawings resulting from bureaucracy.

[Jake Featherston]

I mentioned the Russians because unlike Mexico and China, they have prominent figures who salivate over the US breaking up.

The Chinese are 10,000 times more our enemy than Russia, and I'm sure they'd love to see a secessionist movement in the USA.

[Jake Featherston]

As it was the Confederacy committed treason by actively seeking foreign intervention.

The CSA regarded itself as rightfully independent, hence it wasn't treason.