Lithuanian mentions in the Latvian folkfore and vice versa

[member]

Hehehe, I actually have heard about that. I think this habit of singing generally is really typical for our nations- Latvians, Lithuanians and even Estonians. Lithuanians also have singing and dancing festival, right?

Yes, we have. But it was held for the first time only during interwar's independency period. Before that circumstances werren't enough good for that.

Don't worry! I wasn't trying to put Lithuanians down by mentioning that folk song.

But I have no idea how to connect that singing tradition to linguistic differences.

When we were discussing witj linkus whether Samogitian accentuation actually has Latvian (Finnic) influences, as a proof I posted a quote from the internets saying that north Samogitians songs have a different intonation than those of south Samogitian, that's why I'd assume that Latvian has even more different singing intonation compared to Lithuanians.

btw, do you think that Latvian sounds more melodic in comparison with Lithuanian?

Do you means songs? I all songs sound melodic

Lithuanian accentuation is more varied I think, that's why it would be safe to assume that it indeed is more melodic. But speaking of "how do I hear it", it does not sound "chopped" like Finnish at all, in any case it is still something peculiar from a position of a speaker of Lithuanian.

[member]

It's indeed tasteless, but 'brotherhood doctrine'? Never really understood this. I find Poles to be culturally more similar to us But it's an offtopic.

Well, i hope you are not basing this impression on contacts with Lithuanian Poles of whom a lot are polonized Lithuanians. Just being logical here.

[korkolola]

Well, i hope you are not basing this impression on contacts with Lithuanian Poles of whom a lot are polonized Lithuanians. Just being logical here.

To be honest, cannot generalize too much here, I might have generalized it too much already, it might be just my South-Eastern Lithuanian heritage playing a part here.

It's easier for me personally to understand Polish than hardcore Samogitian, moreover, I find a lot of cultural similarities with the Poles from Poland (not only from Lithuania, even though I am not a person who questions the ancestry of the local Poles).

Could never say the same thing about Latvians, despite the whole common deplorable Soviet past and stuff. Latvians are nice, their language is nice, similar to ours and funny, but I am not feeling the whole brotherhood thing going on.

But then again, it's just my personal perspective...

[member]

To be honest, cannot generalize too much here, I might have generalized it too much already, it might be just my South-Eastern Lithuanian heritage playing a part here.

It's easier for me personally to understand Polish than hardcore Samogitian, moreover, I find a lot of cultural similarities with the Poles from Poland (not only from Lithuania, even though I am not a person who questions the ancestry of the local Poles).

Could never say the same thing about Latvians, despite the whole common deplorable Soviet past and stuff. Latvians are nice, their language is nice, similar to ours and funny, but I am not feeling the whole brotherhood thing going on.

But then again, it's just my personal perspective...

Haha, my grandparents hail from a place quite close to Latvian border. Must be my north Lithuanian (north Samogitian) heritage that reaches for this affinity
Anyway, I understand you but I still think it's a safe choise - to think that Poles are closer.
Lithuanians don't know that much about Latvians. But does it necessarily mean that we are so distant? It's so complicated.

[Waidewut]

It is complicated only if people don't know what kind of similarities are more relevant: innate ones or the ones acquired during history. And there is no right answer here...

[lI]

I listen to folk a lot. And when I say "a lot", I mean A-FREAKIN'-LOT (got some 10GB of it in my itunes, know most of Lithuanian folk bands, etc). I've never heard any song featuring Latvians, Estonians or Belarussians. I can only remember one song featuring Riga:

Jievaras "Trinku Trinku Tilteliai" from Sutartines 2

Trinku trinku tilteliai ladutūto - rattle rattle little bridges
Ne tilteliai trinku ladutūto - it's not the little bridges that are rattling
Varė tėvas jautelius ladutūto - father is driving the oxes
Už dviej šimtu mylalių ladutūto - 200 miles away
Rygon parduoti ladutūto - to sell them in Riga
Neparduoki pigiai ladutūto - do not sell them cheap
Už du šimtu rublalių ladutūto - for 200 roubles


There are some featuring Poles, Germans or Russians (always as negative types: oppressors, attackers, unjust officers..) but even such songs are not common at all. Most of the songs are about some generic things like everyday chores & events.

This is not to say that no such songs exist, only that if they do, they are quite rare. But when you think about it, most of the folk songs are from more than 1-2 centuries ago (that's when they were written down). And Latvians with Lithuanians only really became distinct enough when? Some 4-5 centuries ago? There simply wasn't enough time to start viewing you as something foreign enough to write songs about. The case from a Latvian perspective is different because of the Stockholm syndrome ("what kind of similarities are more relevant: innate ones or the ones acquired during history" ).

[lI]

To be honest, cannot generalize too much here, I might have generalized it too much already, it might be just my South-Eastern Lithuanian heritage playing a part here.

Indeed you have generalized too much. At least thanks for clarifying where your heritage comes from, it explains everything.

Polish people in Lithuania

It's easier for me personally to understand Polish than hardcore Samogitian

This is an objective and definite proof why you should never present your views as typical for Lithuanians - they are anything but that. Samogitian happens to be a dialect of Lithuanian language and Polish is a Slavic tongue that's not even close to being mutually intelligible with Lithuanian.

Ondens lygs par metos sveroun - hardcore Samogitian
Vandens lygis per metus syruoja - standard Lithuanian

And in Polish it would be what? (I'm not fluent in Polish, so excuse me if there are some grammar mistakes, but I dare you to provide a Polish version that would be more mutually intelligible with Lithuanian than hardcore Samogitian is )

Poziom wody waha się w ciągu roku - Polish



Were you actually trolling when you said that you can understand Polish better than Samogitian? Gal nesupyksi, jei paklausiu ar tu iš viso moki kalbėti lietuviškai? Būna, žmonės kartais patrolinti mėgsta - tiesiog norėčiau žinoti, su kuo kalbu..
Labai jau tavo teiginiai prasilenkia su realybe: dzūkai iš Balkanų, dzūkų tarmė į lenkų panašesnė, nei į kitų lietuvių...

South-Eastern Lithuanian dialect (Dzūkų tarmė) was actually the only one that I was exposed to a bit while growing up - all four of my grandparents come from different ethnographic regions of Lithuania but only Dzukian grandma would sometimes use her dialect). Saying that it's closer to Polish than to Samogitian is so out of touch with reality that I was a bit dumbstruck when I first read it lol

[member]

Linkus, I'm not sure whether northern Samogitians use par instead of per. This form was used in Samogitian wiki. I personally say per.
As I said, some of these articles there are written in various sub-dialects.

[Waidewut]

I listen to folk a lot. And when I say "a lot", I mean A-FREAKIN'-LOT (got some 10GB of it in my itunes, know most of Lithuanian folk bands, etc). I've never heard any song featuring Latvians, Estonians or Belarussians. I can only remember one song featuring Riga:

Jievaras "Trinku Trinku Tilteliai" from Sutartines 2

Trinku trinku tilteliai ladutūto - rattle rattle little bridges
Ne tilteliai trinku ladutūto - it's not the little bridges that are rattling
Varė tėvas jautelius ladutūto - father is driving the oxes
Už dviej šimtu mylalių ladutūto - 200 miles away
Rygon parduoti ladutūto - to sell them in Riga
Neparduoki pigiai ladutūto - do not sell them cheap
Už du šimtu rublalių ladutūto - for 200 roubles


There are some featuring Poles, Germans or Russians (always as negative types: oppressors, attackers, unjust officers..) but even such songs are not common at all. Most of the songs are about some generic things like everyday chores & events.

Thanks for sharing!

This is not to say that no such songs exist, only that if they do, they are quite rare. But when you think about it, most of the folk songs are from more than 1-2 centuries ago (that's when they were written down). And Latvians with Lithuanians only really became distinct enough when? Some 4-5 centuries ago? There simply wasn't enough time to start viewing you as something foreign enough to write songs about. The case from a Latvian perspective is different because of the Stockholm syndrome ("what kind of similarities are more relevant: innate ones or the ones acquired during history" ).

But, bear in mind that the main part of Latvian folklore consists of 220 000+ published individual four-line folk songs. This fact undoubtedly makes the approx. 200 songs of Lithuanians "quite rare".

All of them are published on the internet- in the legendary Folksong Closet.

Here is a link for 100 songs if I search for the term: "leiš?"
Any letter can be in the place of ?, so that all of the terms in different
grammar cases would be part of the search results.

http://www.dainuskapis.lv/meklet/lei%C5%A1?

And, what shocks me the most is the fact you are calling the Latvian folksongs dedicated only for Lithuanians as the results of some "syndrome".
In reality this is the biggest token of gratitude Latvian ethno-culture is capable of.

[lI]

And, what shocks me the most is the fact you are calling the Latvian folksongs dedicated only for Lithuanians as the results of some "syndrome".
In reality this is the biggest token of gratitude Latvian ethno-culture is capable of.

I was referring to Lithuanians being portrayed in a negative light. You call it a result of gratitude rather than that of identifying more with the different occupants?