Lithuanian mentions in the Latvian folkfore and vice versa

[Waidewut]

I was referring to Lithuanians being portrayed in a negative light. You call it a result of gratitude rather than that of identifying more with the different occupants?

I am failing to understand who are these different occupants? Germans are portrayed far more "negatively" than your fellow Lithuanians and Russians are viewed positively because if they weren't, they simply wouldn't be published due to censorship.

[korkolola]

Indeed you have generalized too much. At least thanks for clarifying where your heritage comes from, it explains everything.

Polish people in Lithuania



This is an objective and definite proof why you should never present your views as typical for Lithuanians - they are anything but that. Samogitian happens to be a dialect of Lithuanian language and Polish is a Slavic tongue that's not even close to being mutually intelligible with Lithuanian.

Ondens lygs par metos sveroun - hardcore Samogitian
Vandens lygis per metus syruoja - standard Lithuanian

And in Polish it would be what? (I'm not fluent in Polish, so excuse me if there are some grammar mistakes, but I dare you to provide a Polish version that would be more mutually intelligible with Lithuanian than hardcore Samogitian is )

Poziom wody waha się w ciągu roku - Polish



Were you actually trolling when you said that you can understand Polish better than Samogitian? Gal nesupyksi, jei paklausiu ar tu iš viso moki kalbėti lietuviškai? Būna, žmonės kartais patrolinti mėgsta - tiesiog norėčiau žinoti, su kuo kalbu..
Labai jau tavo teiginiai prasilenkia su realybe: dzūkai iš Balkanų, dzūkų tarmė į lenkų panašesnė, nei į kitų lietuvių...

South-Eastern Lithuanian dialect (Dzūkų tarmė) was actually the only one that I was exposed to a bit while growing up - all four of my grandparents come from different ethnographic regions of Lithuania but only Dzukian grandma would sometimes use her dialect). Saying that it's closer to Polish than to Samogitian is so out of touch with reality that I was a bit dumbstruck when I first read it lol

Kiek emocijų... )) Mano penki emo centai:

Taip, aš generalizavau ir buvau subjektyvi iš savo pusės. Papostinus rašytinius lietuvių ir žemaičių kalbų panašumus, be abejo, panašumų surasti galima. Kitas reikalas - tarimas, kurį visiškai ignoruojate. Man asmeniškai ganėtinai sunku suprasti hardcore'inį žemaičių tarimą, sorry. O lenkų kalbą, visą gyvenimą gyvenus Vilniuje, turint gimines PR Lietuvoje ir minimaliai rusų kalbos -žinių - baisiai paprasta. Ypač tokią lenkų kalbą, kuria kalbama Vilniuje ir aplink.

Atsiprašau, kad kalbėdama apie savo asmenines preferencijas, įdomius sau dalykus ir t.t. kartais darau aliuziją į lietuvius, nesu nei tipiška, nei visiška lietuvė. Nesu tautininkė, ar dar kažkas, kad kiekvieną savo žodį apie lietuvių tautą svertų su baisinga atsakomybe ir dar kažkuo. Atėjau pasimokyti ir nieko netrollinu, visokių tarpnacionalinių žaidimų nežaidžiu, man neįdomu. Ateityje rinksiuos žodžius atsargiau.

[korkolola]

And a few more points:

I said Poles are CULTURALLY more similar to Lithuanians IMO, I was not talking about language. Moreover, I clearly said it's easier for me PERSONALLY to understand Polish than Latvian. Then I clearly indicated my heritage and apologized for generalizing about Poles and Lithuanians too much, which might shed a dark shadow on Lithuanian-Latvian brotherhood thingie

[member]

O lenkų kalbą, visą gyvenimą gyvenus Vilniuje, turint gimines PR Lietuvoje ir minimaliai rusų kalbos -žinių - baisiai paprasta. Ypač tokią lenkų kalbą, kuria kalbama Vilniuje ir aplink.

Iš tavo žinutės buvo galima pamanyti, kad supranti lenkų kalbą geriau nei žemaičių tarmę tos kalbos (t.y. lenkų) nemokėdama.

Čia yra ne lietuvių forumas dėl to pasverti savo žodžius kažkiek reiktų. T.y. paminėti tai, kas galbūt tau yra savaime suprantama, bet kitiems ne. Kažkaip nesitikiu, kad daug užsieniečių supranta, kiek žemaičių tarmė ar lenkų kalba skiriasi nuo bendrinės lietuvių kalbos. Visgi lietuvių kalba priklauso slavų-baltų atšakai. Dauguma žmonių gan mažai žino apie lietuvių kalbą, todėl tai gali klaidinti.

O žemaitiškas tarimas ne visais atvejais baisiai skiriasi.

[Waidewut]

And a few more points:

I said Poles are CULTURALLY more similar to Lithuanians IMO, I was not talking about language. Moreover, I clearly said it's easier for me PERSONALLY to understand Polish than Latvian. Then I clearly indicated my heritage and apologized for generalizing about Poles and Lithuanians too much, which might shed a dark shadow on Lithuanian-Latvian brotherhood thingie

This again is dependent on individual perception. Whether one considers language to be part of the culture of one specific ethnic group of people.

I personally think Latvian language is the main factor that makes Latvian culture Latvian.

[lI]

I am failing to understand who are these different occupants? Germans are portrayed far more "negatively" than your fellow Lithuanians

That doesn't negate the fact that Lithuanians are portrayed in a negative light too (even if comparatively it is less negative than how Germans are portrayed). Nearly all songs you cited are negative, especially these:

Lithuanians, Lithuanians my brothers,
Were riding past my yard!
You'll stay Lithuanian forever,
If you won't come in

Look back Anne,
Who is behind you:;
5 Lithuanians behind you,
All have trousers pulled down.

Rumble, rumble, thunder,
Hack the bridge over Daugava,
So that Poles, Lithuanians couldn't come
Into my fatherland.

Russians, Russians, what are you waiting for,
Lithuanians (Poles) are coming into this land!
Sharpen your spurs, put on your boots,
Saddle your horses

Russians, Russians, Lithuanians, Lithuanians
My white brothers:
Ones in Russia, other is in Lithuania,
Other is deep in Germany.

Notice how Latvian folk songs often demonstrate unwelcome attitude towards Lithuanians (...)

By "identifying with different occupants" I meant that they viewed Lithuanians from the same perspective as German overlords in Latvia (or later Tsarist Russian administration). I know that after crusaders got hold of the country, Lithuanians would often raid it - from their perspective, I guess, they were raiding Ordin's lands. From the Latvian perspective, they were raiding them and were perceived as the aggressors.

Have you read any novels by Laimuonis Purs?


BTW, where would it be possible to see music notes for this one (to know the melody)? I couldn't find it in dainuskapis.

Es gribeju Leišu zemi
Zilu guni dedzinàt;
Tikai vien iegādaju,
Māsa Leišu robežâs.

[Waidewut]

That doesn't negate the fact that Lithuanians are portrayed in a negative light too (even if comparatively it is less negative than how Germans are portrayed). Nearly all songs you cited are negative, especially these:By "identifying with different occupants" I meant that they viewed Lithuanians from the same perspective as German overlords in Latvia (or later Tsarist Russian administration). I know that after crusaders got hold of the country, Lithuanians would often raid it - from their perspective, I guess, they were raiding Ordin's lands. From the Latvian perspective, they were raiding them and were perceived as the aggressors.

But the Latvian folksongs are highly satirical, especially the ones about all kinds of foreign governments. You call them negative, but in reality they aren't that far from average. They just have a teasing manner which isn't just "negative".

Also I think the "Lithuanians" in those folksongs often is a term for Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and honestly speaking, why should there be an exceptionally positive view on the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth?

Have you read any novels by Laimuonis Purs?

No, I haven't.

BTW, where would it be possible to see music notes for this one (to know the melody)? I couldn't find it in dainuskapis.

I don't think there are any music notes for that song. Only very few folksongs have individual musical melody and most of these "songs" exist as a form of poetry, that used to be sung like in the examples here:
http://www.lfk.lv/dziesmas_lv.html