Loanwords, lexicon

[lI]

Bulve doesn't lack anything-
http://translate.google.com/#en|be|potato

Wrong. You provided a translation to Belarusian not Polish.

There's just two issues with it: kartupelis doesn't sound any more like German Kartoffel than Russian kartofel - I'm not claiming anything about its origin but just noting the similarity with Slavic word which, incidentally, Lithuanian bulve lacks: in the article it says that it's a borrowing from Poles but in Polish potato is ziemniak, not bulwa.

But whatevs - bulve was included into that 1.5% "amount of Slavism in LT language" anyway since it's part of the Standard language, not just dialects

If I was like you, I could argue that it ain't reaaaaallllyyy Slavic but Latin originallllllyyyyyy and blah blah blah
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bulbous

But I'm not

I don't believe Lithuanian has so little of them, considering all internationalisms.

And internationalisms ought to be counted as Slavisms because... ?
You're being incoherent, sorry.

I can't find the precise number of slavicisms- yes, I looked hard for them in the internet and I'm not hiding info.

I trust you.

That doesn't change the fact your relation was far more intense and longer.

You cannot claim anything definite about the intensity, if it didn't have a considerable lasting impact - and, as evidenced by stats pertaining to language, it didn't.

No, you have more slavicisms that we don't have, than vice versa, because we have many loanwords from German in places you have a loanword from Slavic people.

No, you're being dishonest again.
Slavic in LT - but Germanic in LV [/LMAO]
angelas - eņģelis
karalius - karalis
rožė - roze
vynas - vīns

These are practically the same words
BTW do you actually have some source backing up your claim that they are indeed German and didn't come there together with the early Old Russian influence - like your main words pertaining to Christianity did (baznīca 'church', grāmata 'book', svece 'candle', svēts 'holy', and zvans 'bell'...)?




Moving on to a different subject then. An artice about Estonian language:
http://www.utlib.ee/liber2012/tekstid/eestikeel.pdf

Low German loans 771 - 850 stems
High German loans 486 - 520 stems
Russian loans 315 - 362 stems
Early German loans 269 - 397 stems
Swedish loans 105 - 148 stems
Early Baltic loans 94 - 156 stems

Now, here it is cited that "The percentage of Low Saxon and High German loanwords can be estimated at 22–25 percent, with Low Saxon making up about 15 percent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia...anic_languages

So, if Low German makes up ~15% of Estonian vocabulary by having contributed 771 - 850 stems, we can infer what percentage 315 - 362 Russian stems translates to - and that is... 5.6% - 7%.

Damn!

[Waidewut]

Wrong. You provided a translation to Belarusian not Polish.
But whatevs - bulve was included into that 1.5% "amount of Slavism in LT language" anyway since it's part of the Standard language, not just dialects

I sense you are thinking about the Latgal dialect witch has such a word as buļba/potato. Yes these Latgal people are reaaaallllly Slavic influenced, but they are not the ones perceived as typical Latvians.

And internationalisms ought to be counted as Slavisms because... ?
You're being incoherent, sorry.

I was talking about the total amount of loanwords in Lithuanian and I thought if the Slavic loanwords are the most popular ones when talking about precise ethnic groups, then Lithuanian would still have many internationalism which are also loanwords and thus you referring about the loanwords in Latvian as freakin' much would not be very correct, or isn't it so?

I trust you.

That is very nice to hear.

You cannot claim anything definite about the intensity, if it didn't have a considerable lasting impact - and, as evidenced by stats pertaining to language, it didn't.

If so, don't you consider Lithuanian Catholicism as considerable lasting Slavic cultural impact? Of course it is Roman originally, but didn't you get it via Poland and Polish priests in Lithuania?

No, you're being dishonest again.
Slavic in LT - but Germanic in LV [/LMAO]
angelas - eņģelis
karalius - karalis
rožė - roze
vynas - vīns

These are practically the same words

BTW do you actually have some source backing up your claim that they are indeed German and didn't come there together with the early Old Russian influence - like your main words pertaining to Christianity did (baznīca 'church', grāmata 'book', svece 'candle', svēts 'holy', and zvans 'bell'...)?

But these are words that are relatively similar between various language groups. Do you have some source about them being Slavic loanwords in Latvian? I'll take the stance of saying that if a word might seem similar between Lithuanian in Latvia, when it's a Slavic loanword in Lithuanian it's not necessarily a Slavic loan in Latvian.

Moving on to a different subject then. An artice about Estonian language:
http://www.utlib.ee/liber2012/tekstid/eestikeel.pdf

Low German loans 771 - 850 stems
High German loans 486 - 520 stems
Russian loans 315 - 362 stems
Early German loans 269 - 397 stems
Swedish loans 105 - 148 stems
Early Baltic loans 94 - 156 stems

Now, here it is cited that "The percentage of Low Saxon and High German loanwords can be estimated at 22–25 percent, with Low Saxon making up about 15 percent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia...anic_languages

So, if Low German makes up ~15% of Estonian vocabulary by having contributed 771 - 850 stems, we can infer what percentage 315 - 362 Russian stems translates to - and that is... 5.6% - 7%.

Damn!

Seems that Estonian has been influenced by non Finnic people much more than Latvian has been influenced by non Baltic people, as 50% of the Estonian lexicon is not Finnic (page 21 in the pdf). I think this proves that one certainly cannot perceive also the Slavic influence as something the same between Latvians and Estonians.

What I mean- there is no point in making up some theories about how Slavic is Latvian using only some words as unconfirmed, though logical, evidence and generalizing them so that they would represent all of the properties of Latvian, regarding Slavic loanwords.

[member]

Nobody can estimate exactly the various "sources" of the lexical treasures of a language, but a certain approximation possibly can be achieved. It is generally estimated that more than one-half of the Lithuanian vocabulary has been inherited directly from its Proto-Indo-European source. About one eighth comes from the Proto-Baltic era (circa 2,000 B.C. to 500 B.C.) and about one eighth was formed in the "Lithuanian era" (Eastern Proto-Baltic, circa 500 B.C. to 700 A.D.; Old Lithuanian, circa 700 A.D. to 1600 A.D.; Modern Lithuanian — since circa 1600). This means that only one fourth of the total Lithuanian vocabulary has been borrowed at various times from other Indo-European languages, primarily from Germanic and Slavic languages, but also from Latin, Greek, Italian, French and others.

http://www.lituanus.org/1969/69_3_03.htm

One quarter perhaps too rough..

[lI]

"One quarter" is exactly half less than the amount of loanwords in Estonian which is "one half".

In the opinion of language scholars, the ratio of Estonian own and the loan stems in Estonian is 50:50

___________________________

I sense you are thinking about the Latgal dialect witch has such a word as buļba/potato.

I was talking about Lithuanian language - LT=Lithuanian. Bulve is a word of Standard Lithuanian, so it was already included in the 1.5% of Slavic loanwords regardless of the fact that it's originally Latin.

I was talking about the total amount of loanwords in Lithuanian and I thought if the Slavic loanwords are the most popular ones when talking about precise ethnic groups, then Lithuanian would still have many internationalism which are also loanwords and thus you referring about the loanwords in Latvian as freakin' much would not be very correct, or isn't it so?

It would only be so if the equivalents to all Germanic, Slavic & Finnic loanwords from Latvian language would be international words in Lithuanian. But that is not the case and so, when compared to Lithuanian language, there's a freakin' much loanwords in Latvian.

If so, don't you consider Lithuanian Catholicism as considerable lasting Slavic cultural impact? Of course it is Roman originally, but didn't you get it via Poland and Polish priests in Lithuania?

As a matter of fact I don't. You didn't take into consideration that Slavs neither invented the Catholicism, nor made any profound additions to it, so it is NOT comparable to Protestantism which did start in Germany.
Referring to Polish priests is already a grasping for straws because at the moment Polish language (and priests) have been FULLY eradicated from Lithuanian churches.
A century ago it was different but now it is as it is, so there wasn't any lasting Polish influence through Catholicism.

I'll take the stance of saying that if a word might seem similar between Lithuanian in Latvia, when it's a Slavic loanword in Lithuanian it's not necessarily a Slavic loan in Latvian.

Cool. But then why not take a stance of not assuming that the huge amount of Germanic loanwords in Latvian does NOT make it all that much less intelligible with Lithuanian if the exact same words are labelled as Slavic or international in LT but Germanic in LV.

Seems that Estonian has been influenced by non Finnic people much more than Latvian has been influenced by non Baltic people, as 50% of the Estonian lexicon is not Finnic (page 21 in the pdf).I think this proves that one certainly cannot perceive also the Slavic influence as something the same between Latvians and Estonians.

From that very same PDF:

1526-1767 German stems in Estonian
~3,000 German borrowings in Latvian [1]


94-156 Baltic stems in Estonian
400-500 Finnic loanwords in Latvian [1]


315-362 Russian stems in Estonian
The percentage of Slavic loanwords in Latvian is nowhere to be found but considering that:
a) Latvian has a greater propensity to borrow words than Estonian
b) The two countries had a very similar history in terms of exposure to Slavic language
It would only be reasonable to assume that the amount of Slavic loanwords in LV is no lesser than in EE.

[Waidewut]

a) Latvian has a greater propensity to borrow words than Estonian

How can you say this with such great categoricity if I did post a quote from The State Language Commission's website about loanwords in Latvian constituting 25-33% of the total lexicon?


But don't get me wrong- these loanwords are an integral part of Latvian language and shouldn't be frowned upon in any way. Excessive purism should, though.
I'll quote one great Latvian poet to illustrate what I mean: "Pastāvēs, kas pārvērtīsies."
The one who'll last is the one who'll transform.
/Rainis.

[lI]

How can you say this with such great categoricity if I did post a quote from The State Language Commission's website about loanwords in Latvian constituting 25-33% of the total lexicon?

25-33% directly contradicts the amount of loanwords cited in all other sources. Since it's based on calculated percentages in the dictionary, perhaps it took into account lots of dialectal words and words which are no longer used in standard language?


"Detalizēti analizējot 20. gadsimta 70. gados izdoto Svešvārdu vārdnīcu, kurā lielākā daļa ir dažādu nozaru termini, konstatēts, ka 80 % no svešvārdiem latviešu valodā ir vārdi, kuru cilme saistāma ar latīņu vai grieķu valodu, un tikai 20 % svešvārdu ir dažādu citu mūsdienu valodu vārdi. Savukārt kopējais aizguvumu daudzums latviešu valodas leksikā caurmērā ir aptuveni viena trešā vai viena ceturtā daļa."


In that source it says that loans from neighbouring countries constitute only a fifth of the total amount of loanwords, so 5-6.6% of the total lexicon. That cannot possibly be true because Latvian has twice more German loanwords than Estonian and German loanwords alone constitute 22–25% of Estonian vocabulary. Unless Estonian vocabulary is more than ten times smaller than Latvian (which would be unbelievable for a modern language), the estimation "a quarter to a third" in your source is just a rather uneducated guess. After all, they didn't give any exact percentages "a quarter to a third" (viena trešā vai viena ceturtā daļa) seems just like some rather abstract estimation.

[Waidewut]

"Detalizēti analizējot 20. gadsimta 70. gados izdoto Svešvārdu vārdnīcu, kurā lielākā daļa ir dažādu nozaru termini, konstatēts, ka 80 % no svešvārdiem latviešu valodā ir vārdi, kuru cilme saistāma ar latīņu vai grieķu valodu, un tikai 20 % svešvārdu ir dažādu citu mūsdienu valodu vārdi. Savukārt kopējais aizguvumu daudzums latviešu valodas leksikā caurmērā ir aptuveni viena trešā vai viena ceturtā daļa."


In that source it says that loans from neighbouring countries constitute only a fifth of the total amount of loanwords, so 5-6.6% of the total lexicon. That cannot possibly be true because Latvian has twice more German loanwords than Estonian and German loanwords alone constitute 22–25% of Estonian vocabulary.

You are mixing things up- the source mentions 80% of foreign words
being of Greek or Latin origin. (svešvārdi= foreign words; aizguvumi=loanwords)

Foreign word isn't a synonym for loanword.
Most loanwords aren't foreign words, but all foreign words are loanwords.

[..]the estimation "a quarter to a third" in your source is just a rather uneducated guess. After all, they didn't give any exact percentages "a quarter to a third" (viena trešā vai viena ceturtā daļa) seems just like some rather abstract estimation.

Abstract estimation- maybe yes, also not very accurate, but because it's such a big interval it might actually mean the precise amount does fall between 25 to 33%. And even an abstract estimation like that is greatly different from the one for Estonian.

And if do consider the percentage of German loans in Estonian and Latvian as a factor relevant for the calculation of the total amount of loanwords, it kinda does mean that loanwords in Latvian constitute 100%.
(Latvian having twice as more German loans, hence the percentage of all loans must be 2- times bigger)

So although the amount of German loans in Latvian is bigger, the amount for words of other origins must be much smaller, because I don't believe Estonian has a much smaller tendency to borrow words than Latvian, especially if the percentage of loans in Estonian is so big.

__________________________________

Also, I will add that there are Latvian words listed as loanwords on the internet, while according to etymology dictionaries (this one), it is highly unlikely for them being loans.

F.ex.

meita, apv. meite. Pēc tradicionālā uzskata meita ir aizguvums no ģermāņu valodām; sal. viduslejasvācu meid ‘kalpone’. Saskaņā ar šo uzskatu latviešu valodā ir izzudis senākais, mantotais meitas apzīmējums (radniecības nozīmē) *dukte, sal. lš. dukt, pr. duckti, kr. дочь, v. Tochter, angļu daughter. Formas un nozīmes ziņā tuvāki latviešu vārdam ir vecholandiešu meit, vidusaugšvācu meit, meyde ‘jaunava, meitene, kalpone’ (ar tendenci pēdējai nozīmei kļūt par dominējošo).

Taču šī hipotēze ir apšaubāma. Pirmkārt, tādēļ, ka ne izloksnēs, ne senākajā literatūrā nav saglabājušās pēdas par vārda *dukte esamību latviešu valodā. Otrkārt, vēsturiski nesaskan vārdu nozīmes attiecīgajās valodās: pat 17.–18. gs. vārdnīcās vārds meita nav fiksēts ar nozīmi ‘kalpone’; šāda nozīme parādās tikai 19. gs. Šīs nozīmes nav vārdam meita arī tautasdziesmās. Treškārt, ja vārds meita ir izguvums no ģermāņu valodām, grūti izskaidrot lauzto intonāciju saknes zilbē.

Visticamāk, meita ir mantots indoeiropiešu cilmes vārds, kura speciālās nozīmes izveidojušās latviešu valodā. Vārds var būt atvasinājums no indoeiropiešu saknes *mēi ‘maigs, mīksts, mīļš’ (no kā arī verbs mīlēt). Tādā gadījumā meita sākotnēji nozīmēja ‘maigā, mīļā’. Otra cilmes iespēja saistīta ar senajām cilšu parašām. Hipotētiski meita ir sens baltu cilmes vārds, kas saistāms ar verbu mīt ‘mainīt’. Seno cilšu dzīvē parasta bija jaunavu – līgavu – maiņa, jaunekļa un jaunavas maiņa vai brāļa un māsas precības ar māsu un brāli no citas cilts.

Vārda meita nozīme jaunavas apzīmēšanai un radniecības attiecību nosaukšanai izveidojusies ļoti sen, laikam cilts iekārtā. [Sagatavots pēc: Karulis I 1992 : 577–579]

Most likely meita is an inherited word of IE origin, of whose special meaning has originated within Latvian language. The word could be derived from the IE root *mēi- gentle, soft, dear (from which is derived the verb to love- mīlēt). If so, meita originally meant- the gentle one, the dear one. The other possibility od origin is connected to the traditions of ancient tribes. Hypothetically meita is an ancient word of Baltic origin, that is connected to the verb mīt, mainit- to exchange. In the life of ancient tribes exchange of young women- brides, the exchange of a young man and young woman or the marriage of a brother and sister to another brother and sister from a different tribe.

Also

gads. Vārds tiek salīdzināts ar liet. gadynė (kas savukārt no baltkr. година) ‘laiks, laikmets’, senslāvu godъ ‘noteikts laiks, piemērots laiks, svētki: laiks’, krievu, baltkrievu год ‘gads’, čehu hod ‘baznīcas svētki’, poļu gody ‘kāzu mielasts, kāzas’. Pamatā ir indoeiropiešu sakne *ghed- ‘apvienot, saderēties’, no kā arī latv. gadīties.

Vārda nozīmes attīstība laikam ir bijusi šāda: ‘derīgais, piemērotais’ → ‘derīga, piemērota diena, laiks’. No šejienes nozīme ‘svētku laiks, svētki’. Tālākajā vārda nozīmes attīstībā ‘laiks’ → ‘noteikts laika posms, gads’.

Nozīme ‘laiks’ parādās latv. saliktenī gadskārta ← gaduskārta ‘viens gads’.

Pēc cita uzskata (Endzelīns, Fasmers, Frenkels) vārds gads laikam ir aizguvums no slāvu valodām. [Sagatavots pēc: Karulis I 1992 : 277]

The word is compared to Lith. gadynė (which is compared to Belorussian година) - time, period. Ancient Slav godъ [..]
In the base is the IE root *ghed- to unify, from which is also Latvian gadīties- to happen. [..]
According to other opinions (Endzelīns, Fasmers, Frenkels) the word gads possibly is a loanword from Slavic languages.


So, you can see sources directly contradicting themselves everywhere, which makes it impossible to compare different studies anywhere. There isn't also much consistency, so I have strong disbelief in the 3000 German loanwords, because it doesn't cover an interval like the Estonian source does, so it might as well be an "abstract estimation", like what you called the source I provided.

[lI]

You are mixing things up- the source mentions 80% of foreign words
being of Greek or Latin origin. (svešvārdi= foreign words; aizguvumi=loanwords)

Foreign word isn't a synonym for loanword.
Most loanwords aren't foreign words, but all foreign words are loanwords.

Indeed. Thanks for the correction! If that is the case - loanwords were not included in the "one quarter to one third" estimation of foreign words in Latvian language, this estimation isn't really of much use.

Abstract estimation- maybe yes, also not very accurate, but because it's such a big interval it might actually mean the precise amount does fall between 25 to 33%. And even an abstract estimation like that is greatly different from the one for Estonian.

Pity it is NOT comparable to the Estonian estimation since the two are estimations of different things.
Those millennium old Slavic loanwords from the Old Believers clearly were included in the Estonian estimation but not in Latvian - if even much more recent German loanwords were not included in the later.

And if do consider the percentage of German loans in Estonian and Latvian as a factor relevant for the calculation of the total amount of loanwords, it kinda does mean that loanwords in Latvian constitute 100%.
(Latvian having twice as more German loans, hence the percentage of all loans must be 2- times bigger)

It would likely be a relevant factor when comparing loanwords from the age when your (LV & EE) history was comparable - i.e. the old loanwords which are not even perceived as such by the common people - German, Slavic, Swedish, Batic in EE, Finnic in LV.

Considering the amount of Greek & Latin loans in EE, the trend seems to have reversed itself since those olden days.

Also, I will add that there are Latvian words listed as loanwords on the internet, while according to etymology dictionaries (this one), it is highly unlikely for them being loans.

F.ex.
Most likely meita is an inherited word of IE origin, of whose special meaning has originated within Latvian language. The word could be derived from the IE root *mēi- gentle, soft, dear (from which is derived the verb to love- mīlēt). If so, meita originally meant- the gentle one, the dear one.

Occam's razor:

1)LV meita girl <- DE Maid girl, maiden
It's not only some obscure internet sources, it's also what Zinkevicius supported.

2)LV meita girl <- LV mīlēt to love


P.S. Thanks a million for a link to online Latvian etymology resources, I've been looking for it for ages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The other possibility od origin is connected to the traditions of ancient tribes. Hypothetically meita is an ancient word of Baltic origin, that is connected to the verb mīt, mainit- to exchange. In the life of ancient tribes exchange of young women- brides, the exchange of a young man and young woman or the marriage of a brother and sister to another brother and sister from a different tribe.

This second explanation can be immediately rejected as wishful thinking - if word meita already existed in the times of the Baltic tribes, Old Prussians and/or Lithuanians would have it too: LT. mergà, O.PR. mergo, LV meîta, compare DE Mädchen, Maid - even English have a cognate Maiden. Loanwords could hardly be more blatantly obvious.

Also
The word is compared to Lith. gadynė (which is compared to Belorussian година) - time, period. Ancient Slav godъ [..]
In the base is the IE root *ghed- to unify, from which is also Latvian gadīties- to happen. [..]
According to other opinions (Endzelīns, Fasmers, Frenkels) the word gads possibly is a loanword from Slavic languages.

So, you can see sources directly contradicting themselves everywhere, which makes it impossible to compare different studies anywhere.

The second example doesn't even contradict anything - Lith. gadynė is not just compared to Belarussian, it was actually borrowed from Belarussian [1]. However, it is no longer a part of the standard lexicon - it went the way of the dodo together with the other loanwords which were purged out during the language standardization. Lots (if not most) of the common people wouldn't even know what it means.
The fact that LV gads is compared to LT gadyne only makes a case for it being a loanword stronger, instead of contradicting it.

[Waidewut]

Indeed. Thanks for the correction! If that is the case - loanwords were not included in the "one quarter to one third" estimation of foreign words in Latvian language, this estimation isn't really of much use.



Pity it is NOT comparable to the Estonian estimation since the two are estimations of different things.
Those millennium old Slavic loanwords from the Old Believers clearly were included in the Estonian estimation but not in Latvian - if even much more recent German loanwords were not included in the later.

No, you are wrong again. The source mentions 80% of foreign words being of Latin or Greek origin and in the next sentence:
"Savukārt kopējais aizguvumu daudzums latviešu valodas leksikā caurmērā ir aptuveni viena trešā vai viena ceturtā daļa."

Although the total amount of loanwords in the lexicon of Latvian language is one third or one forth part.

P.S. Thanks a million for a link to online Latvian etymology resources, I've been looking for it for ages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't become too excited, as sadly that place has only etymology entries for only ~200 words.
And there are contradicting things even between the very few words that overlap with the wikipedia list of loanwords and these etymology entries, which makes me think it's also so with the 3000 German loan thing.

[inactive_member]

There are many Baltisms in Belarusian language. There are 1200-1300 Baltisms according to some sources. North-western Belarus has the most. Some examples

Lithuanian - Belarusian - English (Some words could be dialects in Lithuanian)

àtléga - адліга - thaw
búomas - бомы - bell on yoke
bùčias, bučius - буч - fishing tackle
vėnteris , vėntaris - венцер - fishing tackle
degùtas - дзёгаць - tar
krunkočius - крумкач - raven
kruopiene - крупеня - groat soup
láužas - лоўж - firewood pile
paršiùkas - парсюк - boar
šaršė - шаршатка - long, thick needle
šẽškas - шашок - ferret


teškentis - кешкацца - to loiter(?)
klypti, klibėti - клыпаць - to hobble
lopyti - лапіць - to patch
lindoti, lindėti - лындаць - to laze
menčiuoti - мянціць, мянташыць - to sharpen scythe
snaudaliuoti, snauduliuoti - сноўдацца - to muck about