Is Nagorno-Karabakh Armenian or Azerbaijani land?

[Osweo]

By the way, what about Nakhichevan? Is it not a problem for either Armenia or Azerbaijan (who presumably has logistical problems even communicating with the place)? How widespread is Armenian irredentism on this territory?

Seems a pretty isolated little enclave from Wiki;

Today, Nakhchivan retains its autonomy as the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic and is internationally recognized as a constituent part of Azerbaijan governed by its own elected parliament.[72] A new constitution for Nakhchivan was approved in a referendum on November 12, 1995. The constitution was adopted by the republic's assembly on April 28, 1998 and has been in force since January 8, 1999.[73] However, the republic remains isolated, not only from the rest of Azerbaijan, but practically from the entire South Caucasus region. Vasif Talibov, who is related by marriage to Azerbaijan's ruling family, the Aliyevs, serves as the current parliamentary chairman of the republic.[74] He is known for his authoritarian[74] and largely corrupt rule of the region.[75] Most residents prefer to watch Turkish television as opposed to Nakhchivan television, which one Azerbaijani journalist criticised as "a propaganda vehicle for Talibov and the Aliyevs."[74]
Economic hardships and energy shortages (due to Armenia's continued blockade of the region in response to the Azeri and Turkish blockade of Armenia[citation needed]) plague the area. There have been many cases of migrant workers seeking jobs in neighboring Turkey. "Emigration rates to Turkey," one analyst said, "are so high that most of the residents of the Besler district in Istanbul are Nakhchivanis."[74] When speaking to British writer Thomas de Waal, the mayor of Nakhchivan City, Veli Shakhverdiev, spoke warmly of a peaceful solution to the Karabakh conflict and of Armenian-Azeri relations during Soviet times. "I can tell you that our relations with the Armenians were very close, they were excellent," he said. "I went to university in Moscow and I didn't travel to Moscow once via Baku. I took a bus, it was one hour to Yerevan, then went by plane to Moscow and the same thing on the way back."[55] Recently Nakhchivan made deals to obtain more gas exports from Iran,[76] and a new bridge on the Aras River between the two countries was inaugurated in October 2007; the Azerbaijani President, Ilham Aliyev and the First Vice-President of Iran, Parviz Davoodi also attended the opening ceremony.[77][78]

[Hayalet]

When accusing others, and their country of contradictions, first look at yourself in the mirror, you may find that Turkey has walked into a minefield of contradictions

I am not the Turkish government, which indeed contradicts with itself by its stance towards Karabakh, Kosovo and Northern Cyprus. Well, they can all be justified by a pragmatic way of pursuing national interests, but I think you understand what I mean.

Turkey refuses to give restoration to Armenia's territorial integrity, with the return of Armenian territories, as determined by the Treaty of Sevres, at the conclusion of World War I.

Is that really surprising? The Ottoman Empire collapsed, the Treaty of Sevres was annulled, the new Turkish state signed the Treaty of Lausanne with the opposing parties of Sevres.

[Armenian Bishop]

Hm, I would definately say that they are Middle Eastern (when I went from Georgia to Azerbaidjan it felt like I magically entered the new realm - so different were the attitudes of folks around me) but they are not the type to pose any threat to the West (except for some troublesome migrants).

Well, several years ago there was a news report about some Azeris who torched and burned an Armenian alive, somewhere in Russia. Then we have the beheading of Gurgen Magaryan, by Ramil Safarov an Azeri in Budapest, Hungary.

Safarov, and Azeris like him bring a plague of trouble, as far as I'm concerned. For more details, and reference information about the murder of Magaryan, read about it in the Armenian Sub Forum, in the thread: "Beheaded While Asleep."

Two days ago we were remembering Gurgen Margaryan...

Budapest Case,2004.

Murder of Lt. Gurgen Margaryan



Azerbaijani killer

Ramil Safarov




BUDAPEST, HUNGARY February 19, 2004. Armenian citizen Gurgen Margaryan, 26 years old, was hacked to death while asleep by Ramil Safarov, a Lieutenant of the Azerbaijani Army. Both were participants of an English language training course within the framework of the NATO-sponsored “Partnership for Peace” program held in Budapest, Hungary. The murder occurred at 5 o'clock in the morning, while the victim was asleep.
This is how Gurgen's Hungarian roommate, Kuti Balash , remembers the evening before the murder: “Me and Gurgen were sharing a room at the dormitory. The evening before the murder I was watching a football match between Armenia and Hungary, while Gurgen was sitting at the desk preparing his homework. He just came back from the gym”. Staying with them on the same floor were participants of different nationalities, including Ramil Safarov and another Azerbaijani officer. Balash mentions that there were no conflicts among any members of the group. The subject of international conflicts was discussed only once, during the first day of getting acquainted, but nobody spoke of it afterwards.
On the evening of February 18th Balash had tea and went to bed, as he had fever, while Gurgen Margaryan kept on studying. Around 9:30 p.m. Margaryan went to visit another program participant from Armenia—Hayk Makuchyan—who was staying in another room.
Balash does not remember when Gurgen came back, but early in the morning he felt that someone turned on the light. He thought it was Gurgen returning to the room, but after hearing some muffled sounds, he turned his head away from the wall and saw the Azerbaijani officer standing by Gurgen’s bed, with a long axe in his hands. “By that time I understood that something terrible had happened for there was blood all around. I started to shout at the Azerbaijani urging him to stop it. He said that had no problems with me and would not touch me, stabbed Gurgen a couple of more times and left. The expression of his face was as if he was glad he had finished something important. Greatly shocked, I ran out of the room to find help, and Ramil went in another direction”.
What happened next testifies that the murder had been planned in advance. It was not a crime of a personal motivations between Gurgen and Ramil. Immediately after murdering Lieutenant Margaryan, Ramil Safarov went to the room of the second Armenian officer, to finish with him as well.
Later in an interview to the “Iravunk” Armenian newspaper Hayk Makuchyan revealed that neither Gurgen nor him had had any contacts with any of the Azerbaijani officers. “They were not of a communicative type. Usually, after classes, they went straight to their rooms”, said Hayk.
That morning, after committing his first murder, Ramil went to Makuchyan's room with an intention to kill him. In the corridor, meeting a classmate from Uzbekistan who came out of the room after hearing suspicious noise, Ramil offered him to come and assist him in killing the second Armenian. The Uzbek tried to calm the murderer down but did not manage to stop him. Afterwards everyone confessed that they were frightened to approach Ramil with a blood-stained axe closer than at three meters. Approaching Makuchyan’s room, Ramil tried to open it by shaking its handle. As Makuchyan confessed, he usually had a habit of locking doors, unlike Gurgen, but that night he forgot to do it, and the door was locked by his Lithuanian roommate. Being unable to open the door, Ramil started to shout out Makuchyan's name in a threatening voice. Half asleep, Hayk went towards the door to open it, but his Lithuanian roommate managed to save him for the second time. He stopped Hayk from opening the door, as he thought that there was a real threat in Safarov's voice and that he might be armed. To make sure, he phoned to another Lithuanian who lived at the same corridor asking him to check whether Safarov was armed and what was going on at all. Meanwhile, Safarov went to look for Hayk in the room of the Serbian and the Ukrainian roommates, showing them the blood-stained axe and stating that he thirsted for nobody's blood but Armenian. Hayk Makuchyan was told afterwards, that Ramil ran to the room of another Azerbaijani officer, told him something in Azerbaijani, and then ran and stabbed the door of Makuchyan’s room three times with an axe. By that time the second Lithuanian and the police approached. Being detained by the Hungarian police, Safarov confessed he had committed a murder. He also promised to kill another Armenian as soon as he was set free. His revenge was not against anyone particular, but against the whole Armenian nation.
Budapest Police Maj. Valter Fulop told reporters that Safarov committed murder with unusual cruelty. The victim's head was practically severed from his body.
Police said a political motive for the murder was among the possibilities being considered and were also looking into how the suspect obtained the weapons of murder. Hayk Makuchyan states that six days before the murder the whole group of the officers at the English Language course was taken to the excursion to Lake Balaton. None of the Azerbaijani officers was present. Afterwards it became known that on that particular day the axe was bought in one of Budapest stores.
The question if there were any conflicts between Margarian and Safarov was raised during the conversation with the press secretary of Hungarian police. The police questioned all students living on that floor of the dormitory. There was nothing said about any conflicts between Armenian and Azerbaijani officers. On the first days of the courses the Armenians greeted their Azerbaijani colleagues ex comitate but received no reply. Everyone knew there were no contacts between them.


“This crime is the logical consequence of Azerbaijan’s anti-Armenian hysteria and the recent bellicose propaganda with which the Azerbaijani society gets consistently infected. Such state policy has evidently crossed the line beyond which Azerbaijani official representatives commit cold-blooded murder,” the MFA statement says.

Victim, Gurgen Margaryan

[Treffie]

What the fuck are we even talking to Turks about this for? Piss off, Mehmet; we don't give a FUCK what you think.

They obviously think they have a say in the interests of their Azeri bruthas

[Mosov]

NKR is an example of a people expressing their desire for self-determination. Karabakh during the Soviet times was ceded to Soviet Azerbaijan as part of Stalin's divide and conquer strategy in the region. What he really did is put the seeds for conflict and blood. Not the first time Stalin has caused violence and death.

STEPANAKERT. – The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic’s (NKR) Declaration of Independence is not contrary to the provisions of International Law, stated University of Hamburg Professor, Doctor of Law Otto Luchterhand, during the international symposium, entitled “20th Anniversary of NKR Independence: Realities and Prospects,” which is underway in NKR capital Stepanakert.

Presenting a comparative and legal analysis of NKR’s independence, the Professor noted that the situation of Karabakh is more similar to that of Kosovo, as Karabakh, just like Kosovo, is in Europe. Otto Luchterhand also compared the two cases.

As per the German professor, the UN Court had decided that Kosovo was not breaching International Law by adopting its declaration of independence, and based on this, Otto Luchterhand pointed to the similarities and he also gave precedents whereby in Karabakh’s case the right for the self-determination of nations does not conflict with, and is sometimes preeminent to, the principle of territorial integrity.

“NKR’s Declaration of Independence is not contrary to the provisions of International Law. If UN Security Council recognizes Kosovo, it is obligated to also recognize Nagorno Karabakh,” Otto Luchterhand stated, and he called upon NKR’s officials to propagate this fact more actively.

[Armenian Bishop]

Azeris belong to the Islamic (Saracen) civilization, though. You don't have to be a religious Muslim to be part of Islamic Civilization.

Hm, I would definately say that they are Middle Eastern (when I went from Georgia to Azerbaidjan it felt like I magically entered the new realm ...

They obviously think they have a say in the interests of their Azeri bruthas

Yes, That's True! The official position of the governments of both Turkey and Azerbaijan is that they consider themselves to be Turkish Blood Brothers. However, Azeris in Iran don't share that sentiment, more often than not, and they consider themselves be be more closely associated with Iranian Peoples. The infusion of Turkish influence in the Caucasus Region of Azerbaijan served to Turkify the politics of that country, but across the border in Iran, Azeris are very pleasant. It's what's in the soul that's the problem.

[Albion]

By the way, what about Nakhichevan? Is it not a problem for either Armenia or Azerbaijan (who presumably has logistical problems even communicating with the place)? How widespread is Armenian irredentism on this territory?

Seems a pretty isolated little enclave from Wiki;

It'd probably be better joining the Azeris in Iran...

[Armenian Bishop]

By the way, what about Nakhichevan? Is it not a problem for either Armenia or Azerbaijan (who presumably has logistical problems even communicating with the place)? How widespread is Armenian irredentism on this territory?

Seems a pretty isolated little enclave from Wiki;

Yes, it's an isolated Azeri enclave between Armenia, Iran, and Turkey, but was formerly part of Armenia, as evident in maps from antiquity. Iran was a benevolent ruler of the Nakichevan Area, with Juffa Armenian Cultural Metropolis, thriving for centuries, caught in the crossroads of civilization, it began to decline.

Turkey does much to furnish logistical needs for Azeris in Nakichevan.

Azeris ethnically cleansed Nakichevan, and all Armenians there were killed or fled for their lives. By 2006, Armenian Cemeteris in Nakichevan were systematically and deliberately destroyed. Azeri crews were filmed by Armenians across the border, as they took sledgehammers and other tools, pulverize, destroy, and ship away by railway, all that remained of Armenian Cemeteries in Nakichevan.

Nakichevan, as well as Karabakh, were gifted to Azerbaijan, by the Soviet Bolsheviks in the 1920's, both of which were still Armenian Strongholds; the Soviet Bolsheviks gifted the Armenian Stronghold of Javekhetia to Georgia; while, Kars and Ani, still within the realm of Armenia, were gifted to the Turks, by the Soviet Bolsheviks.

[Armenian Bishop]

Armenians Captured many Azeri Tanks, during the Karabakh Wars, 1988-1994. A number of the captured Azeri Tanks had the Turkish Star and Crescent Emblem still painted on them. Turkey furnished logistical and political support to Azerbaijan, during the Karabakh War.

[Onur]

Yes, to have a territory completely surrounded by a hostile nation without a connection to the outside world is ridiculous.
Azerbaijan could blockade it, invade or do anything it wanted with it. The Lachin Corridor is a complete necessity.

Thats the point already. More Armenian problems means more reasons to shout around. Armenia is a nation who gets feed by conflicts after conflicts.

Is that really surprising? The Ottoman Empire collapsed, the Treaty of Sevres was annulled, the new Turkish state signed the Treaty of Lausanne with the opposing parties of Sevres.

Didn't you know that the Armenian PM and several deputies goes to the grave of the man who wrote the treaty of Serves once a year and puts flowers all together.

I get the impression that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue is maintained by the Russians as a card to play in its great game, much like South Ossetia. Russia and America turn up, or lower, the heat on these little squabbles in the Caucasus and the Balkans according to their own agendas. Nationalists who are easily riled up about them are merely tools.

This is the first thing i like about Americans. They can see what people of Europe cannot because they look to picture without prejudices and with a broader view.

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.