Is Nagorno-Karabakh Armenian or Azerbaijani land?

[Mosov]

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

And when ex-KGB chief and Moscow favourite came into power Azerbaijan didn't receive help from Moscow?? lol Moscow played both sides, but especially did this when Aliyev came to power as he was close with Russia. Azerbaijan though inherited much more Soviet armaments and infrastructure and had a clear military advantage over the Armenians. For example, Azerbaijan had been built with airfields, while Armenia was designated as a "buffer zone" by the Soviet Union and a battle field. Soviet Strategy in the area thus had favoured Azeris.

[Albion]

This is the first thing i like about Americans. They can see what people of Europe cannot because they look to picture without prejudices and with a broader view.

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

I think it's pretty plain for all to see really. They're probably in the Non-aligned movement so as to prove to Russia that they won't be running off to join NATO any time soon.
Then again, I doubt Turkey would allow them to join anyway...

[PBachman]

I get the impression that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue is maintained by the Russians as a card to play in its great game, much like South Ossetia. Russia and America turn up, or lower, the heat on these little squabbles in the Caucasus and the Balkans according to their own agendas. Nationalists who are easily riled up about them are merely tools.

You are making comments with no respect to historical antecedents of the conflict. Let me educate you. First, Armenians did not fight the conflict. It was Armenians living on their land trying to fight for self-determination. As anyone can can see that no Armenian would by choice choose to live under a Azeri government after the pogroms that were conducted by Azerbaijan on its Armenian population. On one hand you have a hypocrites like Onur coming on the board claiming the "legality of the treaties" when it suits their interest, but fail to realize that in the process they undermine their own argument for Azeri "territorial integrity". Legally, Soviet international law mentioned in fine print that (in laymen terms) if the Soviet Union were to dissolve the areas would fall under the control of various post Soviet Social Republics that held the majority of population, meaning, all populations had a right to self-determination. Whether this was exercised for some or if some had the right to exercise is not the question. The reality is that people had the right and those that had the power to exercise did so.

Now, Onur you can continue arguing semantics when it suits your interest, as to me, you are a typically Turk with sneaky tactics. You pick and choose what suits your Turkish agenda and ignore everything else. To everyone this is a clear act of hypocrisy. I just find it funny how you get away with this kind of antics. If we are to even assume, lets just entertain the idea that the Armenian Genocide was no genocide, lets say it was a "civil war" or how you and every other Turk tries to portray it; let us assume you are right. How is the conflict between Armenians and Azerbaijan any different? First, clearly, we can't claim that you stole 90% of historic Armenia, but you can claim Armenians stole "20% of Azerbaijan" when in fact, both the legal and moral
argument is on the side of Armenia. It is just ridiculous. I find it funny that idiots like these are even given a podium.

Clearly, this is exactly why towards the twilight of Soviet Union the Azeri political elite tried to implement various pogroms and etc. in Azerbaijan to force Armenians out of region. However, as history has shown, this not only backfired on Azerbaijan, but also Turkey, America, Europe, and Russia, as most of these entities had a clear incentive to undermine Armenia and support Azerbaijan.

Furthermore, Loddfafner, you are actually wrong. Your analysis, again, highlights the limited depth of knowledge you have regarding the region. If indeed you are right that "right is might" then how come Armenians won Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh)? Hmm...I don't understand...you are claiming that there exists a "magic button" that Americans and Europeans can push to "solve problems", but to date, I don't think they can solve the problem between Armenia and Azerbaijan because there is no moral grounds to support Azerbaijan. If you claim you are "spreading democracy" and "are a force of good" how can you even take the side of Azerbaijan at mediation? You can't and that is why the problem can never be solved because Azerbaijan has oil and everyone knows that is the only reason why their even is mediation. The only reason we are even having this discussion is because Azerbaijan has oil.

Clearly, if it did not have oil there would be no debate that Armenians of the enclave are morally and legally entitled to separate from Azerbaijan and join with Armenia. There is no debate. Any debate leads to then, "ok, if you are right about xyz, please, by all means, enforce the ruling", but you can't, as if you step foot in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh) as "liberators" you will shot dead as nobody in that region will give up an inch of land due to principal and the historical antecedents of the conflict. Then it becomes a question of "why are we here" and "what are we fight for". Nobody has an interest in those lands besides Armenians. I don't see any reason why anyone would even think about fighting against Armenians for a few miles of dirt. If Turkey loves Azerbaijan so much, let them give up parts of Eastern Turkey.

Finally, as if Turkey being supported by the American military industrial complex is not an instance of what you are claiming will happen. I don't understand. When I read some posts on this board I find it hilarious how hypocritical some comments are and if you are an astute reader of current events and history you will find these comments are just plain wrong. They are not based on any factual evidence. Turkey for most of the century has neither been a "middle-eastern democracy" nor has it been a "regional superpower". Ever since the decline of the Ottoman Empire post the battle of Vienna the Ottoman Empire just went into decline. The only reason it has survived so long is that Europeans in order to tip the scale on their internal conflicts over oil and oil pipelines arm Turks with guns, political capital, and wealth.

The reality is, whether non-Armenains like or not, Armenians are not going to give up any inch of land without a fight. If Americans, Russian, or others would like to fight on behalf of Azerbaijan or Turkey for that matter, by all means, let them. I don't see how it is even feasible to even return those land to Azerbaijan as the new generation would never opt to live under a Azeri government. The land is under the control of Armenia and Armenians even if is not recognized on paper. The reality on the ground has already settled the debate. End of debate. Anyone wants to argue, please, pick up guns and go to the front line if not, by all means, shut up and accept the outcome.

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

Right. You are so full of shit mate, but let us entertain your bullshit. Are you claiming Azerbaijan was not backed by oil revenues, Turkey, America, and Europe? IF you are, again, you are full of shit. This is ridiculous. At best you can argue it was an equal fight. The reality is much different. The Armenian army was so underfunded that they stole weaponry, tanks, and etc. from the Azeri army. Azerbaijan was so well funded that they hired Russians to fly the planes they had bought from the US because they did not have the knowledge to fly it themselves. They even got Chechen, Paki, and Afghan extremist to fight for them. They also had support from the UK, as they trained the Azeri army on behalf of British oil companies.

If you are claiming they got a "billion dollars in aid" and, at the time, Russia had a surplus in military armament, why then would they want to risk the lives of their fight force to steal tanks, weapons, and etc.? Does this make sense to you, as to me, it makes absolutely no sense why the Armenian side would do this? Please, stop the bullshit mate. You just can't accept the fact that your Turkish brothers lost "20% of their land". That is the reality.

[PBachman]

Onur, by the way, don't think we don't know the games you play. I find the poll even insulting. If you are asking everyone to vote, why would you separate it between Armenian and non-Armenian? Clearly, you are implying that it is only important that non-Armenian vote and the opinions of Armenians are not important? Guess so. If you did want to have an honest poll, you would not structure the poll in that manner.

Really, if you want to group all Armenians together, as if our opinions hold a bias, why even ask Armenians to comment? Clearly, you could have just not even asked our opinion. It would be more direct and to the point.

[Armenian Bishop]

Onur, by the way, don't think we don't know the games you play. I find the poll even insulting. If you are asking everyone to vote, why would you separate it between Armenian and non-Armenian? Clearly, you are implying that it is only important that non-Armenian vote and the opinions of Armenians are not important? Guess so. If you did want to have an honest poll, you would not structure the poll in that manner.

Really, if you want to group all Armenians together, as if our opinions hold a bias, why even ask Armenians to comment? Clearly, you could have just not even asked our opinion. It would be more direct and to the point.

Perhaps, Onur fails to see clearly about some political and historical realities, especially because his government of Turkey has promoted lies and falsehoods about Armenians. However, Albion is the maker of the poll in this Thread, not Onur who is blameless for anything that went wrong with this poll.

In fact, I'm rather glad that this poll was created by Albion: Voting in polls is a simple and direct way for members to make a statement about their viewpoints. It need not be said that Albion is a good friend of Armenians here -- he even created and maintains the "Supporters of Armenia" Social Group.

I like the idea that the Armenian vote is separate from Non-Armenian Votes, because it makes it clear that many Non-Armenians support the Armenian Viewpoint, in these matters; otherwise, people could question whether Armenians tilted the results. Also, it demonstrates that a sizable number of Armenians remain here at The Apricity Forum. The only thing wrong with it is that their is no category for Turkish and Azeri Voters, which would have tied up the loose ends.

[Albion]

They even got Chechen, Paki, and Afghan extremist to fight for them. They also had support from the UK, as they trained the Azeri army on behalf of British oil companies.

The UK will train almost anyone if they have the money or are considered strategically important. I agree though, there are a lot of oil interests in the region which would like to see Russia bypassed.
Back in my college days I remember people from the UAE military doing aviation degrees - after that they were going to a military college. Clearly this is designed to control the Persian Gulf because the UAE is to Britain what Saudi Arabia is to America.

As British troops are set to leave Afghanistan in the next few years they've asked to be able to travel through Kazakhstan (Pakistan having closed a lot of the border). In return the offer was to train some of their military.

Sadly Britain, America and NATO as a whole see the Middle East as different countries to be used for their own goals.

Onur, by the way, don't think we don't know the games you play. I find the poll even insulting. If you are asking everyone to vote, why would you separate it between Armenian and non-Armenian? Clearly, you are implying that it is only important that non-Armenian vote and the opinions of Armenians are not important? Guess so. If you did want to have an honest poll, you would not structure the poll in that manner.

Really, if you want to group all Armenians together, as if our opinions hold a bias, why even ask Armenians to comment? Clearly, you could have just not even asked our opinion. It would be more direct and to the point.

My fault I'm afraid.

I like the idea that the Armenian vote is separate from Non-Armenian Votes, because it makes it clear that many Non-Armenians support the Armenian Viewpoint, in these matters; otherwise, people could question whether Armenians tilted the results.

These are the primary reasons why I created the poll in that way. I wanted to see how many non-Armenians on here supported the Armenians on this.
The Armenian viewpoint is pretty obvious, I think it'd be very rare to find any Armenian who'd support Azerbaijan on this but I could hardly exclude Armenians from a poll about their own people. up

Also, it demonstrates that a sizable number of Armenians remain here at The Apricity Forum.

Yes, and this is a very positive outcome of the poll.

The only thing wrong with it is that their is no category for Turkish and Azeri Voters, which would have tied up the loose ends.

I didn't think of it at the time, but there should be a separate Turkish / Azeri vote now that you mention it. However, we can mostly discern who the Turks and Azeris are by looking who voted.

[PBachman]

Perhaps, Onur fails to see clearly about some political and historical realities, especially because his government of Turkey has promoted lies and falsehoods about Armenians. However, Albion is the maker of the poll in this Thread, not Onur who is blameless for anything that went wrong with this poll.

In fact, I'm rather glad that this poll was created by Albion: Voting in polls is a simple and direct way for members to make a statement about their viewpoints. It need not be said that Albion is a good friend of Armenians here -- he even created and maintains the "Supporters of Armenia" Social Group.

I like the idea that the Armenian vote is separate from Non-Armenian Votes, because it makes it clear that many Non-Armenians support the Armenian Viewpoint, in these matters; otherwise, people could question whether Armenians tilted the results. Also, it demonstrates that a sizable number of Armenians remain here at The Apricity Forum. The only thing wrong with it is that their is no category for Turkish and Azeri Voters, which would have tied up the loose ends.

That is true, but then again, I don't really think it should matter, but I did not notice Albion made the thread. Irrespective, Onur needs to take his own advice. You know I don't like to dabble in these kinds of threads because they are meaningless, but I just can't stand the hypocrisy.

[PBachman]

My fault I'm afraid.

No it is cool. I just jumped to a bit of a conclusion without checking my facts. If anything it is my fault.

Yeah, I just can't stand on the sidelines on this thread. It is one thing to be fair and balanced, but on the other hand there exists a pretty obvious double standard when it comes to not only this issue, but other issues.

[Armenian Bishop]

"In December 2005, the Azerbaijani military razed to the ground about 3,500 khachkars - gigantic carved stone cross headstones, dating from the 15th century - in the Nakhichevan exclave on the Iranian and Turkish borders. The medieval cemetery originally held 10,000 of these exquisitely carved headstones. Armenians formed a majority in this region during the 17th to 19th centuries. The number of headstones - which hold both religious and cultural significance - was reduced to half during the soviet years, and in the last decade, a conscious effort to demolish them and remove all traces of Armenians resulted in the complete destruction and removal of all remaining monuments."

"The most recent effort to break up and remove the stone crosses was noted in December 2005. This week, clerics on the Iranian border photographed the barren cemetery and its new feature - a shooting range."

"The government of Armenia presented a formal complaint to UNESCO Director General Koichiro Matsuura on the destruction of monuments which form a part of the cultural patrimony of the world. In addition, the European Parliament, in February 2006, condemned the destruction of these irreplaceable treasures."

http://www.armeniaforeignministry.co...315_julfa.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachka..._in_Nakhchivan

The once thriving Armenian population in Nakhichevan was ethnically cleansed by Azeris, during the decades that following the 1920's, when it was gifted to Azerbaijan, by the Soviets. Under Iranian administrations, Julfa, Nakhichevan thrived, but by the end of the 20th Century, and early in the 21st Century, Azeris engaged in premeditated acts of destruction, ultimately destroying the Armenian Cemetery in Julfa, Nakhichevan.

[Yaroslav]

The TRUE map of Armenia. It is really unfortunate what Judeo-Turkish terrorists did to your nation. But time is coming when the land will be returned to its rightful owners, because that is God's will.