Was ancient Macedonian Greek?

[Uski]

Is this gonna start a flame war? Most likely

[wvwvw]

About identity:

In 330 BCE Macedonians were not Greek, no Greek would live willingly under the tyranny of a king, even if the kings themselves are Hellenes(Argeads)

By 100 BCE or so the distinction between Macedonians and other Greeks faded away virtually completely, be it in Greece or in the Asian territories.

About linguistics:

Macedonian seems to be some divergent but still Hellenic language, I don't buy the idea that Macedonian originates from some Doric migration from the south but at the same time Macedonians don't seem nearly as distinguished from Greeks as some people would claim, especially when you remove the socio-political aspect that lead to the distinction existing to begin with, Greeks even viewed peoples such as Epirotes and Aetolians as somewhat outsiders.

Read Herodotus. The Macedonians were considered fully Greek by 498 BC when Alexander I took the throne, even by the Persians. Historical evidence and anchaeological show the existence of
Greek-speaking inhabitants of the North Pindus mountains in the period 2200-2100 BC

The Macedonians were more closely related to the Homeric Greeks than to the Athenian Greeks, their kingdom was ruled by a monarch surrounded wit an aristocracy of knights very much like the Homeric model.

The Macedonians, Dorians, Ionians, Acheans, and every other Hellenic and Helladic tribe were in Hellas over 4000 years ago, according to every eminent historian and according to ALL the archaeological evidence.

[Uski]

Read Herodotus. The Macedonians were considered fully Greek by 498 BC when Alexander I took the throne, even by the Persians. Historical evidence and anchaeological show the existence of
Greek-speaking inhabitants of the North Pindus mountains in the period 2200-2100 BC

The Macedonians were more closely related to the Homeric Greeks than to the Athenian Greeks, their kingdom was ruled by a monarch surrounded wit an aristocracy of knights very much like the Homeric model.

The Macedonians, Dorians, Ionians, Acheans, and every other Hellenic and Helladic tribe were in Hellas over 4000 years ago, according to every eminent historian and according to ALL the archaeological evidence.

No scholar in their right minds confuses greek with hellenic in the linguistic point of view. Thats like saying English people speak German because they are in the Germanic family.
It is impossible for a language to not change and diverge over 5000 years of history. How someone can believe this is beyond me. Were they absorbed into Hellenic Society? Most def, but the i Ancient Macedonian Language as far as non-biased historians agree, was probably hellenic, or a sister branch of it. 100% not greek. Thats nationalism at play. Herodotus could say all he want, However neither he, or any greek could understand macedonian(well maybe if he learned it), although he would not consider it greek by a long shot. This is what Modern western scholars know, some say differently, but this is the consencus. No amount of copy pasting can change this. Petros Houhoulis warned me.

You can believe all you want, i can believe the moon is made of cheese, and nobody could change that. Sad really.

[Uski]

The maks themselves however could have considered themselves greek, for all we know, or the greeks could have seen them as such. Lingustic analysis says otherwise though.

[Uski]

BTW read Herodotus

We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks. Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as 'a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4)…" N.G.L. Hammond The Macedonian State p.141. Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here using his own words, he clearly excludes the Macedonians from the Greeks. "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" – Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96

[Adamastor]

There were many ''Greek'' tribes in antiquity, there wasn't a single ''Hellenic'' people with exactly the same genetic results, language and cultural features. The Hellenic world was vast and the Macedonians were certainly part of it. Some speculate they were Dorians and that Dorians came initially from the region that is now the modern Greek province of Macedonia and southern FYROM.

One thing is certain: Ancient Macedonians weren't Slavs, so I see no point in FYROMians claiming them.

But I see no point in these discussions tbh, ancient identities were vastly different from modern post-19th century national identities.

[Uski]

There were many ''Greek'' tribes in antiquity, there wasn't a single ''Hellenic'' people with exactly the same genetic results, language and cultural features. The Hellenic world was vast and the Macedonians were certainly part of it. Some speculate they were Dorians and that Dorians came initially from the region that is now the modern Greek province of Macedonia and southern FYROM.

One thing is certain: Ancient Macedonians weren't Slavs, so I see no point in FYROMians claiming them.

But I see no point in these discussions tbh, ancient identities were vastly different from modern post-19th century national identities.

I dont think North Maks consider them slav. However from what we do know is that if anything, the Maks spoke their Own language in either a sister tree of Hellenic, or A sister tree of Greek within hellenic.

From what ive read about toponyms:

"Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian border and the son of a Greek doctor at the Macedonian court, classed the Macedonians and their institution of Monarchy as not Greek, as we shall see shortly. It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions (e.g. Nearchus a Cretan, Eumenes a citizen of Cardia, and Sitalces a member of the Odrysian royal family). Some of them, if they served in the King's Army, were given Macedonian citizenship, which apparently was in the gift of the king." N.G.L. Hammond The Macedonian State p.141

Even Hammond states that the above names (that the Greek propaganda is presenting) were names of Greeks, who were foreigners in the Macedonian train. Therefore, the above statement coming from the Greek propaganda can not serve as a "proof" that the "Macedonians were Greek", since the above names were not Macedonian, but Greek.

[wvwvw]

I dont think North Maks consider them slav. However from what we do know is that if anything, the Maks spoke their Own language in either a sister tree of Hellenic, or A sister tree of Greek within hellenic.

Hellenic=Greek.

The point is they spoke a Greek dialect. They already spoke and wrote Greek well before 600 and were already Hellenised by 2000 BC.

There are 100's of thousands of inscriptions found in Macedonia ALL of which are in Greek and no other language.

I can tell you that the Macedonians used coinage which was Greek, they wrote inscriprtions in Greek. They spoke to other Greeks in yes Greek. No mention of them speaking in or writing in any other language exists.

Note that Greece was made up of City states, Rome had a centeral governing body, a sort of centeral Bank which issued curency. The Greeks were city states, they didnt have a centeral bank. They issued their own currency with their own Kings Heads on the face of the coins, and used Greek writing to denote the denomination because they were Greek. If they were not Greek then they would have issued coinage in a different language. no one was forcing the to use Greek. The Persians used Persian coins even under Greek rule, because they were allowed by the Greeks to Govern themselves. So did Paionians, Thracians and all others.

There is no evidence they were Hellenized. Where is the evidence that the Macedonians were decended from Illyrians, or Thracians. NO SUCH EVIDENCE exists. All the Evidence shows without a doubt tha the Macedonians were Hellenic, and there is absolutley no evidence to show anyone spoke anything else than Greek. NOTHING.

Why has evidence survived to show that other extict tribes were not Hellenic. Yet in the case of one of the logest lived tribes, The macedonans, there is not evidence to show that they were anything other than Greek. Dosnt this suggest to you that they Were very very Greek. Extremely Greek.

So there is no basis for you to make any such deduction. Every tribe in the Mediterranean had written language as did the Macedonians and that written language was Greek.

Macedonian art is Greek Art. Macedonians pottery is Greek pottery, Macedonian Costume is Greek Costume, Macedonain sports are Greek Sports, Macedonan customs and religions are all Greek. And why did they spread their Greek language far and wide if they weren’t Greek.

All Archeological excavations point to only Hellenic Culture and no other. They show the same Hellenic designs, pottery, costume and artistic style as the rest of Greece.

But there are NO TRACES of Illyrian, or Thracian, Cimmerian, Scythian or even Phrygian civilisation in Macedonia. The only evidence of civilisation in Macedonia is that of Hellenic Civilisation. The only traces of Language is that of GREEK. No other traces have been found.

[SharpFork]

Hellenic=Greek.

The point is they spoke a Greek dialect. They already spoke and wrote Greek well before 600 and were already Hellenised by 2000 BC.

There are 100's of thousands of inscriptions found in Macedonia ALL of which are in Greek and no other language.

I can tell you that the Macedonians used coinage which was Greek, they wrote inscriprtions in Greek. They spoke to other Greeks in yes Greek. No mention of them speaking in or writing in any other language exists.

Note that Greece was made up of City states, Rome had a centeral governing body, a sort of centeral Bank which issued curency. The Greeks were city states, they didnt have a centeral bank. They issued their own currency with their own Kings Heads on the face of the coins, and used Greek writing to denote the denomination because they were Greek. If they were not Greek then they would have issued coinage in a different language. no one was forcing the to use Greek. The Persians used Persian coins even under Greek rule, because they were allowed by the Greeks to Govern themselves. So did Paionians, Thracians and all others.

There is no evidence they were Hellenized. Where is the evidence that the Macedonians were decended from Illyrians, or Thracians. NO SUCH EVIDENCE exists. All the Evidence shows without a doubt tha the Macedonians were Hellenic, and there is absolutley no evidence to show anyone spoke anything else than Greek. NOTHING.

Why has evidence survived to show that other extict tribes were not Hellenic. Yet in the case of one of the logest lived tribes, The macedonans, there is not evidence to show that they were anything other than Greek. Dosnt this suggest to you that they Were very very Greek. Extremely Greek.

So there is no basis for you to make any such deduction. Every tribe in the Mediterranean had written language as did the Macedonians and that written language was Greek.

Macedonian art is Greek Art. Macedonians pottery is Greek pottery, Macedonian Costume is Greek Costume, Macedonain sports are Greek Sports, Macedonan customs and religions are all Greek. And why did they spread their Greek language far and wide if they weren’t Greek.

All Archeological excavations point to only Hellenic Culture and no other. They show the same Hellenic designs, pottery, costume and artistic style as the rest of Greece.

But there are NO TRACES of Illyrian, or Thracian, Cimmerian, Scythian or even Phrygian civilisation in Macedonia. The only evidence of civilisation in Macedonia is that of Hellenic Civilisation. The only traces of Language is that of GREEK. No other traces have been found.

Lmao, this is ridiculous, Macedonia was at the fringes of the Greek world, it was in no sense of the term quintessentially or purely Greek, it obviously had influences from outside.

[Zeus]

I heard somewhere that the Ancient Greeks did not see the Macedonian people as truly Greek, but that the ruling class of Macedon were able to prove descent from Greeks and so the ruling class of Macedon were considered to be Greeks ruling over a barbarian people...

I heard from another source that the language of Macedon was unintelligible to the Greeks and that the culture diverged in some ways, including in that the Macedonians were far more autocratic than the more oligarchic or democratic Greeks

Nevertheless, I have always thought of the Macedonians as an offshoot of the greater hellenic family for whatever reason... This might just be because I WANT the Macedonians to have been greek for my own roleplaying purposes lol...