Runestone

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Orkhon / Old Turkic Orkhon Yenisey / Old Turkic (Göktürk)
(also called the Khöshöö Tsaidam monuments )

The earliest known examples of writing in any Turkic language were found in the Orkhon river valley in Mongolia in the 19th century. They date from the early 8th century AD and the script in which they are written is known as the Orkhon alphabet, or the Old Turkic script, the Göktürk script, or the Orkhon-Yenisey script. Inscriptions dating from the later 8th century AD in a slight variant of the Orkhon alphabet, known as Yenisei or Siberian runes, have also been found around Yenisei and other parts of Siberia.

Because of a superficial resemblance to the Runic alphabet, the alphabet is also known as Orkhon or Turkic runes. This resemblance is probably a result of the writing materials used - most inscriptions are in hard surfaces, such as stone or wood, and curved lines are difficult to inscribe in such surfaces.

The Orkhon alphabet is thought to have been derived from or inspired by a non-cursive version of the Sogdian script. By the 9th century AD, the Orkhon and Yenisei alphabets were replaced by the Uighur alphabet, which developed from the cursive version of the Sogdian script.
Notable features

Type of writing system: alphabet
Direction of writing: written mainly from right to left in horizontal lines, though some inscriptions are written vertically with the letters rotated by 90°. When written vertically, it read from bottom to top and right to left.
Some consonants have two forms, one of which was used with front vowels, the other with back vowels.
Used to write: Old Turkic (a.k.a. East Old Turkic, Orkhon Turkic, Old Uyghur), the earliest attested form of Turkic, found in Göktürk and Old Uyghur inscriptions dating from between the 7th and 13th century.

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[Graham]

Very cool, didn't realise you had so many of them. Keep the pictures coming please.

[Onur]

As I understand Onur was talking about these:

Yes. Most of these stones are from 7-8th century and one of the most famous one is the 2nd picture in your post. It relates the foundation story of the Gok-turk empire and there are advices to the future rulers for the administration of the state.

Only Germanic and Turkic peoples used this runic script before they have been christianized and islamized. Turkic and Germanic versions (futhark) are similar to each other but there are some letter differences despite that both used in pretty much same era. Ofc Turkic peoples wrote in Turkic, Germanics wrote in their own language.


Talvi, which script Estonians and Finns used before switching to Latin? I`ve never heard of runic stones in Estonia or Finland but it doesn't sound logic. Your people should have used it too.

[Onur]

These are the Germanic Runic alphabets;

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/runic.htm

And these are the Hungarian and Turkic runes;

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hungarian_runes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic_script

Hungarian runes here is the version from 9-10th. Turkic runes are from 7-8th century. Hungarian ones are ultimately derived from Turkic version but not from Germanic ones. It`s been said that Magyars learned the runes from the Szekely people who lives in today`s Romania. It`s been thought that Szekely people are the descendants of Huns and Avars, speaking Turkic before 11th century but later assimilated among Magyars.

[Talvi]

Talvi, which script Estonians and Finns used before switching to Latin? I`ve never heard of runic stones in Estonia or Finland but it doesn't sound logic. Your people should have used it too.

We used spoken language and telepathy only.

[Vasa]

Illyrian, first off thanks for those posts!

Its easy to forget about all the petroglyphs (Hällristningar) that is equal amazing.. Theese are from stone age till the end of viking age and there is thousands of them.

Some pics of my own:







In Södermanland there is a total 2373 petroglyphs and runes combined.
In Uppland there is a total 6591 petroglyphs and runes combined.
In Stockholm area there is a total 4015 petroglyphs and runes combined.

So you see in just a small part of Svea there is almost 13 000 runes and petroglyphs



A some random pics.

[Onur]

Its easy to forget about all the petroglyphs (Hällristningar) that is equal amazing.. Theese are from stone age till the end of viking age and there is thousands of them.

Vasa, thanks for your post. These stones and drawings are amazing. You guys are lucky to have your 1000-2000+ year old culture still standing still in your homeland.


As for the Turkic runes, the most interesting point about that is, they can be found in vast lands, from today`s northern Russia, Siberia to Anatolia and Balkans. I already posted a msg here about a cave with Turkic runes from 9-10th century in today`s Romania;

This is an unusual 9-10th century cave monastery in Basarabi, Romania. There are pictures and writings carved on the walls of cave and it is multi-lingual with old church slavonic and Turkic words, mostly written by using Turkic runic script and few in Glagolitic.

Inscriptions and pictures in the Monastery dated from the era of first Bulgar kingdom, late 9th century and early 10th century. Some inscriptions mentions about Bulgar king Simeon I of 890 AD. So, it`s few decades after Bulgar people started to be converted to christianity. Some scholars says that the inscriptions belongs to Pecheneg(Patzinak) Turks, some says it belongs to Bulgars but it`s not known for sure.


Basarabi Cave Complex
The complex of cave churches situated near the village of Basarabi, in Dobrudja (Romania), not far from Constanta, was discovered in 1957. Until the last third of the tenth century the entire complex consisted probably of a group of limestone quarries which provided various blocks of chalk used in the construction of the upper part of the Great Stone Wall of Dobrudja, from Constanta up to Cernavoda. According to I. Barnea, the extraction of stone could have ended under John Tzimiskes (969-976) or Basil the 2nd (976-1025).

The abandoned caves could have been then transformed into a monastery. It so happened that the complex changed into a group of churches and burial chambers, located inside the limestone hill, at different levels, and interconnected through galleries.

Most of the chamber-walls are covered with overlapping graffiti, including drawings and inscriptions, thus making possible to discern different periods of the site’s history.

The variety of the graffiti is wide: there are Christian symbols, drawings of animals and men, Turkic runes, and Cyrillic inscriptions. These drawings could have appeared as early as mid-tenth century, as supposed by D. Ovcharov. Among the Basarabi graffiti there is a large number of runic inscriptions and separate signs, undoubtedly of Turkic origin.

http://www.mnuai.ro/docs/apulum/articole/1.fetisov.pdf





























These are some drawings of christian saints with Turkic runic inscriptions on them in old church slavonic or Turkic words;




There is a video of this cave monastry in this Romanian website;
http://www.realitatea.net/video_9006...ni_580837.html

For more info and pictures;
http://www.patzinakia.com

An Article about this cave by prof. Florin Curta, Cornell University, NY, USA. F. Curta translates and explains the inscriptions here;
http://florida.academia.edu/FlorinCu...er_of_Bulgaria

When i have some time, i will post the ones in Anatolia and central Asia too.

[Dacul]

These are the Germanic Runic alphabets;



And these are the Hungarian and Turkic runes;


Hungarian runes here is the version from 9-10th. Turkic runes are from 7-8th century. Hungarian ones are ultimately derived from Turkic version but not from Germanic ones. It`s been said that Magyars learned the runes from the Szekely people who lives in today`s Romania. It`s been thought that Szekely people are the descendants of Huns and Avars, speaking Turkic before 11th century but later assimilated among Magyars.

The turcik runik script does not resemble germanic scripts.
The reason for being like this is because was easy to write like this on stone using a sharp object and to use only straight lines not curved lines.
Go take a sharp object and try to make a straight line on some stone with it.
Now try to make a curved line.
Both lines should be really deep,so they last over the years.
Which one you found it easyer to make?
I tell you,the straight line.
There are only like 3 signs who are looking same in both scripts,but used for different letters.
The usage of letter T for Tyr/Thor suggest germanic is indo-european since in greek at God you are saying Theos/Theo .



But I do not understand why I am posting here to preserve the reputation of germanics,since I am dark brown haired with brown eyes and 75 cephalic index,long nose on both dimensions (because of old balkanid-romanian population origin) with dinarid root and high cheekbones and some red threads of hair in my beard.So I am mediteranid mixed with native population from Balkans - Romania,which is thraco-dacian (since thracians were meds also since is said the cezar Trajan was a "true born thracian").
So I am mediteranido (med no ideea if from pontid or med,whatever something from there) - balkanid (from some dinarid) which in the views of the people from University of Upsala and other nordicists is "inferior race".
I have the usual med jaws,with 90 degrees angle where you jaw is curving.

So I am of inferior race,besides I am also speaking as mother language a language that have 20% of the words if not more from slavic source and rest of latin origins,so no german origin either to my mother language,but is a latino (romance) language mostly with slavic influences,so an inferior language also.So this lowers me even more on race ladder.
And I am of christian orthodox religion which in their views lower me even
more on "race ladder".

How come germanics here of nordic phenotypes,so of superior race,speaking as mother language some germanic so speaking a superior mother language, of heathen religions who post here can not make even such a simple thing to compare some written signs and get a clue why both alphabets are written in same way?

Nordicism - fail .

You do not know why to gypsies was put rroma as name?
By germanics to make fun of latin speaking language populations and to mock Roman Empire,after Roma.

But if we would be correct,gypsies from Romania are not by far as unhuman as germanic vikings were who went to UK and raped women there and did other very unhuman acts,that poor celts there got so scared that they put in their prayer books and they were praying like this:
"Save us oh Lord from the wrath of the norsemen".
(google it,so you do not say I am inventing things).
So calling gypsies semi-vikings would be much more fair.
Besides,look at gypsies,they like to wear a lot of gold on them and look at Pallantides thread,in Scandinavia is traditional custom that bride should wear killos of gold on them for wedding,because that is linked to fertility.
Strange resemblances between gypsies and vikings,don't you think?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

The Orkhon Inscriptions
Being a Translation of Professor Vilhelm Thomsen's final Danish rendering
E. Denison Ross

The two famous monuments known as the Orkhon Inscriptions, erected in honour of the two Turkish princes, Kül-Tegin and his brother Bilgä Kagan, though mentioned in Chinese histories, remained forgotten and ignored down to quite recent times. They stand near the Lake Kocho Tsaīdam, to the west of the River Orkhon, about 50 miles north of the monastery of Erdentso (the site of the ancient city of Kara Korum), and about 25 miles to the north-west of the ruins of the capital of the Uighurs, Kara-Balgassun. They are two great square monoliths, which originally reposed in two sockets. Both these sockets are still in their original position, but the monuments have been thrown down, with the result that Monument II is in four pieces. They contain long Turkish inscriptions in Runic characters on three sides, and on one side (the western) the inscription is in Chinese. The Chinese inscriptions are very beautifully cut; the Runic inscriptions, which are also probably the work of the Chinese stonecutters, are less elegant. It may be mentioned that the Chinese inscriptions differ entirely in their contents from the Turkish.

Onur do you have english translations of inscriptions? I am searching though..found only as a short part of pdf -article..

[Onur]

Onur do you have english translations of inscriptions? I am searching though..found only as a short part of pdf -article..

There are lots of information in this Kazakh website with descriptions, pictures and full texts translated from Turkic to English. Not only the ones in Orkhon, there are translations and info for other Turkic runic writings too;

http://irq.kaznpu.kz/?lang=e&mod=1


Here is one of them;
A runestone erected in 732 AD by Khan Kultegin. He relates the events for the creation of GokTurk empire in 520 AD;