Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other

[Jarl]

Thats what I managed to find out about Latvia in WWII:

Nazi Germany conscripted Latvia's inhabitants in their armed forces. During World War II more than 200,000 Latvian soldiers ended up in the rank and file of both occupation forces; approximately half of them (100,000) were killed on the battlefield.

In 1944, the Red Army lifted the siege of Leningrad and re-conquered the Baltic area along with much of Ukraine and Belarus. Nazi Germany began to suffer regular defeats on the eastern front and was pushed back to the west. During mid-July 1944, the Soviet Army once again crossed Latvia's pre-war eastern border, and by October 13 had re-captured Riga. By mid October, the German Army, which partly included the "Latvian Legion", was besieged in Kurzeme, in the "Courland Pocket".

Some 200,000 German troops held out in Courland. They were trapped between the Baltic Sea and the Soviet lines while the Soviet Army concentrated on attacks in East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, and ultimately Berlin. Colonel-General Heinz Guderian, the Chief of the German General Staff, insisted that the troops in Courland be evacuated by sea and used for the defense of the Reich. However, Hitler refused and ordered the German forces in Courland to hold out. He believed them necessary to protect German submarine bases along the Baltic coast. On January 15, 1945, Army Group Courland (German: Heeresgruppe Kurland) was formed under Colonel-General Dr. Lothar Rendulic. Until the end of the war, Army Group Courland (including divisions such as the Latvian Freiwiliger SS Legion) successfully defended the area in which they were besieged. It held out until May 8, 1945, when Colonel-General Carl Hilpert, the army group's last commander, surrendered to Marshal Leonid Govorov. At this time, the group consisted of some 31 divisions of varying strength. Approximately 203,000 troops of Army Group Courland were deported to Soviet prison camps in the east after surrender on 9 May.

Many Latvians fled through this battlefield in fishing boats and ships to Sweden and Germany, from where they emigrated to various parts of the world, mostly Australia and North America. Approximately 150,000 Latvians ended up in exile in the West.

Apparently the Germans held out until May the 8th. However, there is no mention of the Latvians. Had they been there they must have constituted a tiny fraction of the 200,000 troops, mostly German troops. Wiki states that the 1st SS Latvian division was fighting in Pomerania where it commited war crimes on Polish troops:

The Division fought on the Pomeranian Wall defences. At Podgaje, 2 February 1945, men of that division performed a war crime on Polish prisoners, burning in a barn 32 soldiers from 4th company, 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division Polish First Army tied up with a barbed wire.[1][2][3]

However out of fear of Russian revenge it fought well in the last months of the war, with a surviving battalion in the last defence of Berlin in mid-1945. Other remnants under Waffen-Standartenführer Vilis Janums surrendered to the advancing Americans at Güterglück near the Elbe River.

While the 2nd Latvian division was indeed a part of the Courland Group, but it could have numbered 11,000 - 20,000 troops (all Latvian forces within German army in 1944 numbered 80,000 men). However, it seems that the Courland Group was pretty much a German force. Here is a map:



Courland Group was sealed off in Courland - the big pale red spot on the Southern banks of the Gulf of Riga. Estonia held until 26th September 1944, but was taken in the Tallinn Offensive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn_Offensive

There was 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) fighting for the Tannenberg line and then at the Battle of Tartu. However, they have been withdrawn to Poland. Some were apparently allowed to stay:

When Adolf Hitler authorised the full withdrawal from Estonia in mid September, all men who wished to stay to defend their homes were released from service. Many chose this offer, fighting the Soviets alongside other Estonian units and then withdrawing into the forests to become the Forest Brothers. Severely weakened by this, the division was withdrawn to Neuhammer to be refitted.

Were there any Estonian formations left to defend Estonia? Apart from Estonian police and Estonian border defence forces? Article states:

By the beginning of the Tallinn Offensive on 17 September at the Emajõgi front, the II German Army Corps was down sized to a modest division (4600 men)[5][6] (...) the III SS (Germanic) Panzer Corps. Various pro-democracy Estonian troops formed from the men deserted from 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian), Finnish Infantry Regiment 200, Omakaitse civil defence, Estonian Border Defence, and Estonian Police.[4]

Pity it does not state the exact numbers of Estonian volunteers. As a matter of fact it does not even state the total number of Estonian-German forces at all. Quite odd really...



P.S.

you know, Latvian SS was fighting in the devensive war against Sovjet over the complete east front and later around Berlin and tried to defend the goverment quarter of Berlin with the German allys!! There can not be a harder battle like the battle for Berlin in April 1945!!!

Veterans of Stalingrad would most likely disagree...

[Jarl]

Where were the Estonian super heros in Berlin? Sorry no Estonian was there maybe they were pissing their pants!!!!!

Nooo... They were not in Berlin, but they (the 1st Estonian, 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS) were encircled near Opole (Oppeln), in Silesia, fighting the Red Army until 31st of March 1945, so that Latvians could take a deeper breath before Zhukov, Ivan Konev and Konstanty Rokossowski took Berlin, Prague and East Germany.

[EWtt]

Nooo... They were not in Berlin, but they (the 1st Estonian, 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS) were encircled near Opole (Oppeln), in Silesia, fighting the Red Army until 31st of March 1945, so that Latvians could take a deeper breath before Zhukov, Ivan Konev and Konstanty Rokossowski took Berlin, Prague and East Germany.

There were Estonians in Berlin, but not the 20th SS divison. There were the Luftwaffe soldiers who defended Seelow heights. And there have been many reports of other Estonian soldiers in Berlin (maybe some from the "remains" of the 20th division; some Estonians were known to be in the Nordland Panzergrenadier divison, etc.)

[Jarl]

There were Estonians in Berlin, but not the 20th SS divison. There were the Luftwaffe soldiers who defended Seelow heights. And there have been many reports of other Estonian soldiers in Berlin (maybe some from the "remains" of the 20th division; some Estonians were known to be in the Nordland Panzergrenadier divison, etc.)

Well, I think this sorts out the "pissing pants" thing for good


P.S.

I read Latvians were forcefully conscripted into their "volunteer" legions...

The Latvian Legion was created in January 1943 on the orders of Adolf Hitler following a request by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. Technically, it was a volunteer unit, but one month after the unit was founded, German occupation authorities in Latvia started conscripting military age men as close to none were interested. They were given a choice between "volunteering" for SS Waffen legions, serving in the German army (Heer) as "auxiliaries" (laborers behind the front lines), commanded by German officers and often treated as subhumans, or being sent to a slave labor camp in Germany. Those who tried to avoid one of those options were arrested and sent to concentration camps.[2] As a result, only 15-20% of the soldiers serving in the legion were actual volunteers.[3]

With Nazi Germany losing the war, conscription was extended to larger and larger numbers of Latvians. The first conscription, in 1943, applied to all Latvian men born from 1919 to 1924. The subsequent conscriptions extended to Latvians born between 1906 and 1928.

...apparently.

[Inese]

Hm let me see ----I say it is sickening what you do here, belittleing every Latvian effort as a whole group! Makes it fun?? No one was alive and active at the time , not our parents or grandparents! All you know is from books and people with a certein opinion of history.
You know Jarl brings the Polish view point because he is Polish no wonder that he says that the Poles did of course nearly everything in the war and the Latvian army had only to battle the stupid Russian rest.... Karl and Ewtt bring the Estonian view point and say Estonia did everything alone and Latvia has done only nothing and could not achieve anything!! Everyone want to see his county in the best light on the shoulder of other countrys...

I dont say that Poland did nothing or Estonia did nothing but i defend Latvian eforts and it is wrong to run down all Latvian powers.

Latvian army is the yellow...
The small spot of yellow would have completely been destroyed if the Estonians wouldn't have started an offensive in Northern Latvia.

You put it complete out of context why dont you post the other maps?? The title of the map says that the orange part are combined German and Latvian troops that means that there were Latvian involved not only in the yellow spot but in the orange area too.



A little later in war the "small yellow" spot has sucess!!

Hitler personally was amazed by the Estonian Waffen SS soldiers in Germany and Berlin. Estonia was lost, but the Estonian Waffen SS still fought with determination.

Hm Hitler and other high ranks was amazed of Latvian Waffen SS too.

Pissing their pants? Give me an historic source that the Estonian Waffen SS was pissing their pants. You're the Latvian female version of Hors. You just start insulting when your version of history/world is false.

It was a saying and dont play the innocent now!! Dont bring Hors in here i am not insulting your country but you do insult mine in put disgrace on us.

You come here in complete arrogancy , saying that complete Latvia is in dept at Estonia for everything what happened and that we cant life for us own because holy Estonia had to lower itself to help the poor Latvians out of every problem in histoy

What do you expect please that i kiss your feet??? Look at the historic material! It is true that Estonian helped us but dont give the wrong impression that you are our eternal saviors and parents. It is not true!!

Yeah, you do argue with everyone. You don't know anything about Latvia, you're an immigrant in Germany.

Oh please and what has it do to with the topic?? It was not my decision.

Just accept it, Latvia would have been annexed by Germany/USSR if the Estonian army wouldn't have beaten the Germans and the Soviets in Northern Latvia.

Oh and why was holy Estonia annexed then a little later??? It changed nothing!!

And please, Inese, stop this off-topic trolling.

Stop be so arrogant and glorify your country excessive on costs of other countrys who had to fight the same problems.

That is all it is so stupid to have a argument about the topic!! Estonia was eaten by the USSR the same as my country and Lithuania. We should be standing together but you treat Latvia and our history like a retarded child. Shame you!

[EWtt]

The title of the map says that the orange part are combined German and Latvian troops that means that there were Latvian involved not only in the yellow spot but in the orange area too.

Those German troops fought for a United Baltic Duchy which was basically a German country in the Baltic area. They stood against our independence to implement their own imperialistic goals.

A little later in war the "small yellow" spot has sucess!!

Notice that a lot of that is the area Estonia liberated before and then gave under Latvian control:



This map only shows the extent of Estonian advance [purple] during the Battle of Cesis/Võnnu, it was greater later on:

You come here in complete arrogancy , saying that complete Latvia is in dept at Estonia for everything what happened and that we cant life for us own because holy Estonia had to lower itself to help the poor Latvians out of every problem in histoy

If Estonians hadn't invaded Latvia then that would have been a threat to our independence as well - Red Latvians, Soviets and Baltic Duchy Germans already controlled almost entire Latvia. You can't say Latvians (who wanted independence) didn't need our help and could have managed themselves.

What do you expect please that i kiss your feet??? Look at the historic material! It is true that Estonian helped us but dont give the wrong impression that you are our eternal saviors and parents. It is not true!!

I personally don't expect anything except respect for those Estonian troops who sacrificed their lives for an independent Latvia. I also respect Latvians who managed to reorganize their army and liberate the entire country.

Saying Estonian soldiers didn't do much and basically weren't important is wrong.

[Jarl]

You know Jarl brings the Polish view point because he is Polish no wonder that he says that the Poles did of course nearly everything in the war and the Latvian army had only to battle the stupid Russian rest....

Well, what can I do? I did not write the history Inese. The truth is that Poland allied with Semen Petlura's Ukrainian army, invaded Russia in 1920 in Operation Kiev, taking most Belarus and Ukraine, West of Dnieper. The Bolsheviks did not have any choice. They had to act or else they would face loss of whole Ukraine, which was by far their main grain and food-producing province. This would equal to annihilation. They launched a counter-offensive engaging most of their forces - nearly a million men. The were beaten and their armies were obliterated, some of them encircled, some sealed off in East Prussia having retreated there to avoid the pursuit. Then they were beaten at the battle of Warsaw and then at the Niemen battle. In the aftermath, they were no longer able to sustain the war and had to sue for peace giving massive concessions to Poland.

The truth is that the German Freikorps, aided by 30-40, 000 Latvians, could have had its little victory over 50,000 disorganised White volunteers... But in the long run it would mean nothing. Whoever would have won - the Whites or Freikorps/Latvians, they would still have been wiped out by the Bolsheviks who had millions of soldiers at their disposal. If Poland had lost the war in 1920, and had not managed to repulse the Bolsheviks (who lost 300,000 out of 0,8-1 million troops) Lithuania's and Latvia's fate would look very, very grim.

P.S.

Seriously, just ask any history professor who specialises in the history of Revolution 1917 abd Bolshevik Russia at your school or university about that war and its aftermath. In 1920 Bolsheviks were not aiming just for Poland. Trotsky wanted to capture Czechoslovakia and Germany to launch a global socialist revolution.

[Äike]

Hm let me see ----I say it is sickening what you do here, belittleing every Latvian effort as a whole group! Makes it fun?? No one was alive and active at the time , not our parents or grandparents! All you know is from books and people with a certein opinion of history.
You know Jarl brings the Polish view point because he is Polish no wonder that he says that the Poles did of course nearly everything in the war and the Latvian army had only to battle the stupid Russian rest.... Karl and Ewtt bring the Estonian view point and say Estonia did everything alone and Latvia has done only nothing and could not achieve anything!! Everyone want to see his county in the best light on the shoulder of other countrys...

I dont say that Poland did nothing or Estonia did nothing but i defend Latvian eforts and it is wrong to run down all Latvian powers.



You put it complete out of context why dont you post the other maps?? The title of the map says that the orange part are combined German and Latvian troops that means that there were Latvian involved not only in the yellow spot but in the orange area too.



A little later in war the "small yellow" spot has sucess!!


Hm Hitler and other high ranks was amazed of Latvian Waffen SS too.


It was a saying and dont play the innocent now!! Dont bring Hors in here i am not insulting your country but you do insult mine in put disgrace on us.

You come here in complete arrogancy , saying that complete Latvia is in dept at Estonia for everything what happened and that we cant life for us own because holy Estonia had to lower itself to help the poor Latvians out of every problem in histoy

What do you expect please that i kiss your feet??? Look at the historic material! It is true that Estonian helped us but dont give the wrong impression that you are our eternal saviors and parents. It is not true!!


Oh please and what has it do to with the topic?? It was not my decision.

Oh and why was holy Estonia annexed then a little later??? It changed nothing!!

Stop be so arrogant and glorify your country excessive on costs of other countrys who had to fight the same problems.

That is all it is so stupid to have a argument about the topic!! Estonia was eaten by the USSR the same as my country and Lithuania. We should be standing together but you treat Latvia and our history like a retarded child. Shame you!

Estonia liberated Latvia and gave Estonian controlled territories to the re-organized Latvian army. The Latvian army didn't exist before the Estonians arrived, because the Latvian army was defeated by the Germans and by the Russians. The Latvian army was practically re-created from scratch and the Estonians helped them of course.

Stop arguing history, it's pointless and just makes you look silly. I'm sorry that you don't like the history of Latvia, but we can't rewrite history. Or can we?

[Loki]

Everyone want to see his county in the best light on the shoulder of other countrys...

This is true, and hence there are always two sides to a story. Or three or four.

[Inese]

Stop arguing history, it's pointless and just makes you look silly. I'm sorry that you don't like the history of Latvia, but we can't rewrite history. Or can we?

Oh i can proud say that i love the history of Latvia but you have a problem with some facts of our history!! All i want is respect for Latvian eforts in the past and that you not glorify your own country on our cost!!! You know i am not the one who say that Latvian army was worth total nothing and that Estonia did everything near alone. You show no respect for our history and you see your country some level above my country. You look down to Latvian history and make total arrogant remarks when i want to tell you that you should not run down the history of my country!! Tousand and tousand of Latvian people and soldiers were fighting and dying for our nation and for other Balt countries and you dis-honor all what they did when you talk " Estonia is the savor and all other had to rely on them" Estonia is a very nice country but you are not the holy grail!! Estonia had no chance against Germany or Russia it is a small county and small folk like Latvian or Lithuanian.

Your remarks divide us dont you see it?? i want no argument but you come here from nothing and talk about how bad Latvian soldiers were. Sorry but Estonian soldier were not winning over Russia or do i miss the information that Estonian soldiers had a triumph march trough the streets of Moscow???

I have resignd to the fact that people here look down on me ---- i can not write foreign language very good and dont know how to put my mind in sentences often but that dont prevent me from saying what i need to say okay??

Again i tell you that i respect Estonia and the achivements of Estonian army in all the wars!! I am thankful for the help and the unifing Baltic pride but you were no super heros and we were no helpless children and canon fooder....



You honor your soldiers and i honor our soldiers and the German soldiers. Dont talk bad about us and i dont talk about Estonian!!